There are a lot of toxic people in 3D printing. There is a lot pf gate keeping and nearly abusive complaints. I honestly think a lot of it comes down to someone spending what is a lot of money (to them) on something, then feeling insecure about it. Then lashing out at the alternatives to make them feel less regret.
There are also a lot of good reasons to complain about prusa. They have not been bringing much of the innovation they promised a long time ago. The MK4 seems like it answers a lot of that. But it is a bit more of the same.
The truth is probably somewhere in between. Prusa has a lot going for it. If a competitor wants to win, they need to bring better value. At the end of the day, either one is worth more than what you could buy a few years ago. They are both winning choices.
I don’t own an iphone. I do have a good android phone. But I use that almost every hour. Sometimes for hours. I don’t think it is reasonable to think everything I buy can be the same price as my smartphone. And it isn’t reasonable to pay $800 for something I can get for $200. Obviously, people can choose what they want to spend their money on and a ender is not the same as a prusa mk4. But the price is ultimately why I have never owned one. I can just buy better stuff (for me) with that $800. I won’t be buying a bambu anytime soon either though. The value of $800 is different for everyone.
EDIT - Oops! Sorry this is more of a rant than I was expecting! (trying to watch the F1 GrandPrix at the same time!)
I get the value thing - it’s why my camera and lens collection is worth about the same as a full-frame camera body only, and it does the same job in the same way an Ender and a Prusa do, but in camera world the worst of the critics are almost good-natured compared to the lot I am describing!
Most of what you have said is completely valid, (I’d question the android phone though ) and if printers were my hobby rather than printing, I’d be building one quick as a flash (we all know it probably wouldn’t be that quick - but you get my drift). The only other printer I’ve used on a regular basis is my grandson’s Creality gadget (that was on my short list before I spent the big bucks) and while it isn’t a patch on my Mk3 it serves its purpose well, and I don’t feel I have to call its owner names because of it!
I hear that a lot, and cop a flogging for asking what the clone makers contribute. How is Creality’s free slicer helping you for instance? "Olympus cameras were in the same boat - with each new model there was the cry “but they’ve stopped innovating”, yet I am still winning the odd award with images shot on an almost twenty year old camera. (I do have a newer one and yes it’s much easier to get good results !)
Is constant innovation better than long term iteration? I am happy to keep my cars for decades because I don’t think it is, yet I made a leap to all the safety electronics a year or two ago because it was finally working and in one package.
Why am I upgrading you might ask? The bed levelling I think, mostly. That and because my wife thinks our grandson needs my old machine!
That is the main selling point for me as well. The Mini’s old sensor is just bad, I have to live adjust Z nearly every print. I wanted to get the Super Pinda, it works great, the Mini+ at school got it, but I might skip that for the MK4.
To me, Prusa is like something based on the spirit of Linux or FreeBSD. Bambu is high grade engineering, made by the people from DJI. Prusa is kinda street smart, community focused, not always in the forefront, but does most things “the right way”. Bambu is slick and stylish, a new kid on the block that got a lot of fanboys quckly.
Personally, I prefer the Linux approach. But I wouldn’t spew vitriol towards Bambu, I can really understand how great engineering and product development wins many over. It’s the same with Apple. I have nothing against their products, they really stand out. I’ve had most of their products over the years, but to me Apple is starting to lose it’s appeal because of the pricing. (Not trying to start an Apple pro-con argument here! Just think it’s a useful comparison)
Not knocking the product - I love a lot about it, but I’m wary of this marketing angle if I’m honest with myself. How many other “people from xxx” have failed to provide an effective package in the long term?
Delorean was from General Motors for instance. I’m not sure that Bambu has quite nailed the build quality of DJI, but they have a VERY loyal customer base even if there are a few cracks in the delivery here and there.
I wonder if they will be judged as innovators as time goes by? I’m not sure where this conversation is headed, but I am not sure that educating the market to need constant innovation is a good thing if you are selling machines that are not able to be upgraded.
Are the Bambu machines just consumables like phones and inkjet printers designed for a short life? I don’t know, but they don’t seem to be designed to upgrade.
I wonder how a ‘whole of service life’ cost comparison would look?
I consider prusa the ‘redhat enterprise’ of the 3d world. You pay for it, but in the back of your mind you know you probably could have done it cheaper.
I don’t know why people have brand loyalty to products they’ve never owned. I do understand people owning a product they had issues with and never buying the same brand again.
I think this video was the catalyst for the recent complaints against Prusa. This was before the MK4.
The “clones” are what I would call something like the Anet or Wanhao machines. They contribute more than you are giving them credit for. They have brought the prices down and put pressure to add features.
Companies like creality and BTT are not what I would call clones. They do make new designs (and they aren’t perfect). But they have brought in a ton of people to the community and added new excitement with the machines that are upgradable and eventually open source. Creality has brought cheap parts to market that weren’t common before (the cr10 max has a lot of useful parts, the belt printer CR-30). Big Tree Tech has made a ton of advances in electronics (look at the manta, remember the ramps).
I do use the prusa slicer and printables. But I also have a CR10 max print bed in my custom printer and an skr controlling it. I can’t buy the prusa control board. I can’t buy the extruder. I can’t buy the prusa heated bed.
My geeetech clone is all metal. Nothing in the original frame is 3d printed. It makes it awesome for printing higher temp materials in a heated enclosure. Sadly the stock extruder can’t take those temperatures and any attempt I made at modding it failed.
I am not criticising them, simply asking the question of those who criticise only Prusa for a lack of innovation.; Why do not the myriad of genuine clones not cop the same flogging? Competition is another matter altogether!
[quote=“Jeffeb3, post:48, topic:37502, username:jeffeb3”]
I can’t buy the prusa control board. I can’t buy the extruder. I can’t buy the prusa heated bed.
[/quote].
Why not? Everything seems to be available in the store? I have seen that criticism before and don’t get it - unless you are geoblocked or something?
I assume you are talking about the new model - which is not being terribly charitable since there aren’t enough bits in the wild to make machines quite yet and the upgrade kits aren’t due for release until June. You’ll be able to buy them then.
You can buy all of those things for the Mk3 and download the print models for the extruder as well if you don’t want to buy those parts ready made. (It’s no surprise that the E3D hotend and Rambo boards are out of stock I guess). They aren’t bargains, but I guess that’s what clones are for, and no doubt there’ll be Nextruders available on AliExpress before the real ones are on sale!
My biggest gripe with Prusa is the price of a mostly 3d printed printer. Don’t get me started on the XL. Lots of poor design decisions just so Joe could hug the print.
I had trouble over a year ago finding a replacement pinda probe on their site, seems to be more easily found now. So it seems that has changed.
Looking at my mk2.5s it’s hard to call it mostly printed. Having had a part break recently after running through 6 km of filament I’m glad I was able to print a replacement vs. hoping my fly by night company was still in business and had a replacement. Making money off cheap injection molded plastic is better than making money off cheap FDM parts? In the end the premium has been worth it to me, just as it has paying a modest premium to Ryan.
I’m less impressed with his recent comments on “open source” Seems he wants open source software but (effectively) closed source hardware (though I’m not sure how that differs from V1’s. CC non-commercial lic)
And all that said, my next printer will probably be a VORON 2.4 and not an XL.
Last post on this topic as I am about to head out and by it’s nature we are going in circles, but that’s OK if we are entertaining each other!
IMHO the 24hr customer support is just one thing that holds them to that standard. I have only called twice, both for obscure little things I couldn’t solve - both times the attention was first class - dare I say “Apple Standard”?
Objectively - some of my cognitive bias comes from the 16 kg of filament they’ve given me thus far in Prusameters and competition prizes - OK the cost of freight per spool is the same as a roll of Sunlu, but none the less if we subtract the retail price from the purchase price of my machine it’s a hefty discount, so I’m going to be difficult to convince!
Thanks for the conversation - and it’s so nice to have it without anyone telling me what a Narcissist Jo Prusa or describe my parentage!!
That is so much work and material for $75! How the heck… Shoot, maybe I really need to look into a metal one, try to get those prices. I think we might have had this chat before.
) and if printers were my hobby rather than printing, I’d be building one quick as a flash (we all know it probably wouldn’t be that quick - but you get my drift). The only other printer I’ve used on a regular basis is my grandson’s Creality gadget (that was on my short list before I spent the big bucks) and while it isn’t a patch on my Mk3 it serves its purpose well, and I don’t feel I have to call its owner names because of it!
with images shot on an almost twenty year old camera. (I do have a newer one and yes it’s much easier to get good results !)
