Inconsistent cuts with multiple passes -Solved-

So, I’m trying to figure out why no 2 passes are ever the same.
At first, I thought I was skipping steps, but I’m running 85oz/in 2A steppers, at 2.2A (1.1V, I’ve tested at 0.7 and it was like they had no torque at all, I could stop them with a finger. Now I can’t stop them without a lot of effort) with DRV8825, so they should have much more than the required torque. At the same time, it’s not overheating, the drivers are kept cool by a 120mm fan, and I’ve checked all of the steppers and drivers multiple times during the cut, and they don’t get hot, slightly warm at most.

So, ok, maybe it is belt stretch, I’m using a no name belt after all, it could be defective or something, but as far as I know it should be a constant, not something that happens only sometimes on multiple passes.

Then I thought: maybe the bearing are shit/too tight/not tight enough, but they roll easily when unpowered, and I left the machine running some cycles for an hour and the end it was perfectly accurate.

Then I started thinking about the weirder issues. Maybe the import spindle gets too hot, and it softens the toolholder, causing it to flex. That would explain why the cut starts off being pretty good, but then drifts. But I left the spindle running for 30 minutes, and at the end there was no noticeable flex on the holder, no matter how much force I applied (I removed it from the middle assembly, to avoid damaging anything).

I thought about my CAM, but the issue presents itself with really light workloads:
I’ve tested two cuts on plywood, both 2mm DOC, 10k rpm spindle, 3mm endmill (the second cut was made with a fresh one, just in case), 900mm/min feeds. So, everything pretty normal and slow.

[attachment file=69369]
This is a 2d contour of a circle. At the points where it is more squished, the movement slowed a lot, then accelerated, and after a while came back to normal speed.
This repeated for both passes. At the end it came back to zero, but the shape was completely wrong.

So, ok, maybe I’m asking too much of my machine, even if I’ve seen people pushing it much, much harder.
So, here comes test 2: [attachment file=69370]

as you can see, the second pass was larger in a spot.
This is a 2d adactive cut, same doc, and feeds, optimal load 1.2mm, just with a fresh endmill. So, even if the spindle was not pushing hard, it still wasn’t correct. There was no slowdown, and I kept the area clean with a vacuum.
The kicker is: it came home perfectly to X0Y0, I changed the bit to an engraving vbit, and cut the drawing, and it did it perfectly, and again came back to zero. Just to clear up that it wasn’t the spindle wire causing an interference on something.

I don’t know, I’ve run out of ideas.

I’ve changed the board from my previous tests, now I’m using a fresh ramps and mega 2560, with new drv8825 drivers, and I’ve made sure to remove any play from all carriages (in my previous thread there was some, and I’m sure it was causing issues). There are no cracked pieces.

The machine has a 60x60cm usable area, 7cm Z axis, everything was self sourced.

Make sure the set screws on the steppers are tight.

Picture of your machine,

What endmill are you using, how many flutes up cut or, real or a drywall bit,

how does it do with a pen and no load,

Did you draw my crown,

You say import spindle but which one and how big,

Are the dimensions of your cut close

wired in series

16T pulleys?

Even with a giant fan 1.1v is really high, it is probably not the problem but I highly doubt you need to be up that high, 0.8V Maybe…1.1V I highly doubt it. Bet your steppers are smoking hot after 20 minutes.

That isn’t slow, we use a 30K spindle single flute bit and run 8-12mm/s, you are at 10K so…

Yeah, that was something I checked when I rebuilt it, and they are as tight as I can get them without stripping them

@Ryan:
Here it is.
[attachment file=69401]
[attachment file=69405]

2 flutes, upcut, real endmill. I’m using cheap chinese bits, so no names. They do cut fine when I use them in dremel though.

It does pretty well, I don’t have any photos though, since I haven’t mounted a pen in a while and it takes quite a bit to remove the spindle. The engraving on the second piece is meant to show it though
I did test the crown when I built it and it was fine, but I didn’t bother taking a picture, and it was a lot of time ago, so I don’t have it.

500W, 52 mm spindle, ER11 collet, air cooled. Mounted with two brackets.

Dimensions are close, when it doesn’t choke up like that. Around .1/.2mm error.

Wired in series, yes.

Steppers are warm, around 50/60C after 20minutes, and don’t get much higher. At 0.7 they had pretty much 0 torque, so I preferred to crank them up (temperatures were a big concern of mine, since I had issues with drivers shutting of, so they were the first thing I checked).

Yes, 16T pulleys, the machine is stock, I didn’t deviate from the

Hmm, all threads I read mentioned higher speeds, unless I misremember, I’m going to try with a slower feed. Edit: Also, I checked my CAM again and the contour cut was made at 700mm/s, not 900, so it was alrady closer to the usual range.

Too hot, PLA gets soft you are going to melt your motor mounts.

Those cuts do not looks even close to good, something is very wrong but you are saying all the right things.

Your Z coupler should be touching the bearing.

Your corner tops are on backwards but that won’t effect anything.

I would put my money on that spindle being cruddy (much less than 500W) somehow or your tension bolts are all too tight.

So try doing 8mm/s 1mm DOC, 0.4mm finishing pass. If that doesn’t give you a nice cut something is very wrong.

Tried that cut, using a contour.
[attachment file=69415]
[attachment file=69416]
[attachment file=“2018-09-16 19_29_17-Fusion360.png”]

And yeah, terrible again.

Again, it came back to 0 perfectly, but each pass did it with it’s own approximation of a circle.

I’m going to adjust the Z coupler, I somehow missed that step.

Any tips on how to check if the bearings are too tight?

Edit:
I hope it’s not the spindle though, I’d rather avoid spending another 70/80€

2018-09-16-19_29_17-Fusion360.png

Please use estlcam to troubleshoot. There is no way for me to solve fusion issues. There are more than 5 tabs of settings. Plus your endmill settings.

 

From the screen shots you showed you are changing the wrong settings. Please, estlcam is many many times easier. I can’t help with fusion at all.

[attachment file=69443]
[attachment file=69444]

Ok, new photos. This were made with Estlcam, using a lead in (the reason because the piece has a part cutout).
As you can see, it does well in straight lanes, but it is terrible with the circle

[attachment file=69445]
This are the estlcam settings I used.

Diameter of 3.25?

Plunge of 10mm/s is too fast try 3.

Your Z finishing DOC is 0.4…try the full depth.

You do not have a finishing pass selected in your path details.

How old is your bit, can I see a picture or a link?

If you scuff off the curly bits with some light sand paper how far is it really off? From the picture it seems much better already.

And you don’t need a lead in. If you don’t want to plunge use Ramp instead.

Yeah, 3.25. I’m using that diameter bits simply because I have a ER collet for dremel bits already in, and that’s the diameter it’s rated at.
I’m going to try 3mm/s plunge, sure, but what problems could it cause? It went the correct distance, and the bottom finish is the only good part of the cut.
The piece has a decent finish, but the issue is that the stock around it is terribly cut, and it’s not round.
Here are the photos of the piece, it’s still inacceptable.
[attachment file=69454]
Also, the shape is clearly squished, and not a circle.
But yeah, there are less vibrations on the edge.

About the finishing DOC. Yeah, I realized my mistake much later, I just thought that was the finishing depth for some reason, before I read the tooltip again

Something is wrong. Drastically wrong. Your spindle is moving all over the place. It should be obvious if you can wiggle it. The low res pictures you put up, I can’t see anything other than what I pointed out.

I sense you are getting frustrated but all I can do is ask questions and give suggestions. The gcode changes are just to make sure you are doing it correctly. Other than that it looks like your spindle is barely on the machine, or your endmill is cruddy and not actually cutting but I can only ask what you are using so many times.

What a finishing pass would do is see if your machine is capable of making a circle. If it cuts a crap rough pass it should clean it up 95% with a finishing pass, if that does not work you need to take it apart and start over make sure you didn’t miss any other steps.

 

Judging by how fuzzy your middle layer of wood is I would say your end mill is garbage. It is normal to have a fuzzy top or bottom but never in the middle.

Oh, sorry, I completely forgot about the endmill photos.

I don’t have a link because the ebay listing is long gone, but here they are.
[attachment file=69462]
[attachment file=69464]

Here is a photo of the one I’m running, at the minimum distance I could focus.

[attachment file=69463]

It’s not covered in adhesive or something, which was something I was worried about with the tape method.
The picture quality is bad, sorry, but my phone camera is pretty terrible, not much I can do about that. I’m going to send them in higher resolution, but the quality isn’t much higher.

The spindle is pretty rock solid though, I couldn’t wiggle it at all even with it off the machine and running really hot. [attachment file=69461]

The fuzzy middle is actually a misplaced cut, it’s a shelf it didn’t cut because it went too big (or the previous cuts too low, so the fuzz is actually the top of that shelf. I couldn’t remove it with a blade so, and yeah, in the photos it’s not noticeable.

I’m going place another piece of wood in the machine and try again with the finishing pass set correctly.

The endmill looks really suspicious, I am not sure what that is for but it does not look right. The chip flutes look really small. Compare it to this, https://vicious1-com.myshopify.com/collections/sharp-stuff/products/1-8-2-flute-endmill

At the same time it could be dull, depending on how many bad cuts.

Besides off the machine how does the spindle feel on it?

Are the dimensions on your cuts correct? Or are they way off? 20% off?

Make a new cut with the new settings and a finishing pass and lets see how it looks, middle layers included. I am a little confused to what you mean about that but lets do a fresh one, as correct as possible.

 

 

The spindle feels solid, it doesn’t wiggle at all, unless I make the whole assembly wiggle.

The endmill may be bad, I don’t really know, but they are also pretty hard to find here in italy (unless I wanted to pay 8€ for a no name chinese one on amazon), so I’m making due. It isn’t dull though, i’m using a new one for these cuts. The alternative are dremel ones, and they are even more overpriced. Chip evacuation isn’t an issue though. I believe the bit is for metal, because it makes a great chip on plastic (until the machine craps out, of course).

Sorry about the 3d printing terminology, still not used to troubleshooting CNC issues, but I meant that the fuzzy part is the top of a piece of wood that was left behind because the last pass was off.

Cuts are pretty correct, provided they don’t drift away. We are talking .2mm from the CAD.
I just need to cut another piece of plywood and wait for the glue to settle before attempting the new cut.

Well your dimensions are correct, you say the crown was perfect. At this point I have no other suggestions than to get a proper endmill or your spindle wiggle is worse than you think. You are cutting really think light wood. There should be zero issues, you machine is acting extremely poorly and I can tell you you will not get far with how it is.

To lighten the load, you should really invest in a proper single flute endmill, that fits your collect correctly.