Help develop MP3DP v5!?!

Mostly Printed 3D Printer - MP3DP Hardware Development
890

There well could be.

I didn’t like them much at first, but my cousin’s son got an Ender 3 which he didn’t get set up, and it took me very little time to get set up and working well. He’s been using it a year and a half and it’s holding up.

For my laser, it didn’t seem feasable to get 1.5m rails, and the OpenBuilds carriages were inexpensive, so I decided to try them. I have 2 of those carriages and 1 of the Ender style ones and they were pretty easy to get moving smoothly. The difference in cost was much bigger dealing with a couple of 1500mm and an 800mm rail.

So far, so good. I think I can do better with alignment of the motor pulley with the belt inside the extrusion, sometimes I can hear it touch the sides, but it hasn’t caused skipped steps at all.

The laser goes to 12000mm/min and seems to work well. I’m in the process of moving it over to the Jackpot, but on the Duet it seemed pretty good overall. To where I am having trouble I think because the laser output isn’t keeping up in raster mode, I’m getting blurred edges. We will see if the Jackpot fixes that.

For me, I don’t remember them being “everywhere” but I mostly looked at budget stuff, and it was the M8 smooth rod and LM8UU bearings that were everywhere. I still use that as a solution, too, because it’s ubiquitous and cheap. For me though the fact that it’s still around in places like the Enders and the OpenBuilds machines seems to me like it must work at least reasonably well for many people.

Anyway, the investment is low so I’ll build that way if it’s an option, and if I don’t like it, I’ll swap in rails.

Considering that I do not need another 3D printer, and this will be a “gotta build 'em all” project for me, lower cost here means more money for other things.

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891

Just to set the record straight, I threw this together as a way to mock-up my build because I was going to have to wait a few weeks for the z-axis rails to arrive…discovered that they work pretty well. There may be some “sticktion” over prolonged use. It would be interesting to print in one-piece nylon to see how long they lasted, some drawer slides last a long time with a single nylon guide.

I never considered them for XY because I was certain that at high speed they would melt / fall apart. Z-Axis motion happens once per print.

I agree with the statements about v-groove wheels, I have a drawer full of them! If v-groove wheel solution was going to be a consideration, I think the parts should be milled, and maintain the current geometry.

Something like this?

v-groove_plate

Use it in place of the MGN12H bearing block? I might try cutting one out of lexan | aluminum tomorrow, just to see how it might work. Use a tap to thread M3 in the plate.

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892

I’ll report back on the brakes… Z motors under the bed is ok with me. I’d rather have them on the floor so they don’t move, but the v4 is working. I have had the belts seat into the end blocks over time so they loosen and then if they get too loose. The motor will skip. The z-tilt auto level is fabulous though.

Not a fan of the make your own plate thing for the bed holder, but only because I have not done it. I’m using extrusion for bed support and don’t like it either because the bed mount is wonky… Has to be a cleaner way.

Re rails vs wheels. Is this high end or budget? High end: gotta have rails. Budget: wheels. There has to be a way to adapt the rail block mount to a wheel plate without destroying it, but that could be an exercise left to the builder. People convert from wheels to rails all the time, so it could be an upgrade path for the slow starters to go from wheels to rails. The trick is to do it without requiring the frame to be rebuilt. If this is out of scope, no problem.

893

Dang, good idea!!

Yeah changing that up for sure.

I think I am going to do an extrusion based one…try to keep people from using 3/4" aluminum for the backer plate. :face_with_peeking_eye:

Sounds like JRS came up with a better idea than the one I had. I like that.

894

Considered something like this? Z-Plate needs feature(s) add for bed mount somehow…

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MGN12 Rail block would be proud by ~3.5mm, easy to cover or live with? For 1/4" panel could route channel.

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MGN9H rail block would be flush.

895

I don’t think routing all three panels like that is a great option. That means super thick panels and a lot of CNC routing is required to use panels.

The way it is now, panels can be laser cut, or routed. I just worked out a decent idea, I will clean it up a bit more and share it in the morning.

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896

Also, putting them sideways means no options for V-wheels.

897

Sure thing. Personally prefer linear rails if they’re easier to get right. To me, bang-for-buck encompasses material cost, but also ease of assembly, tuning and maintenance.

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898

Would it be a better idea to use 3-4 wheels. I feel like two might seem a bit loose. I really like this idea. Please keep up in the loop of the tests

899

Oh good point, they are definitely easier. Time is money.

We are so close I am getting excited. I hope I get some time to work on it tomorrow.

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900

CNC 4mm deep channel in 6mm ply should be ok? For Laser cut, could do full cut slots for where the rail blocks slide, then, if full enclosure wanted could 3D print/CNC/Laser cut patch plate/cover.

Or, with MGN9H for Z linear rails, the rail block will be flush. Adding layer of exterior silicone/VHB tape before fastening up panels might provide enough of a clearance gap.

Plyboo panel with cutout slots, for wheels in this case…

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901

Just gonna put it out there that you want three wheels on something like this, and one of them should have an offset cam mount in order to make it adjustable. Otherwise, that’s a good plan. (The Mini V wheel gantries that exist use four wheels, 2 adjustable, but I found that three is much easier to adjust with my laser build.)

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902

This is how all the plates on the Ender 3 are designed.

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903

Before this, I was against V wheels, and against 4 wheels. Now though, am not so sure… They’re claiming 4 correctly installed polycarbonate wheels are better than 3 wheels, and better than cheap linear rails. They mention quality linear rails are best, but I don’t know what they were referring to?

Personally like the PlyBoo look, especially if it’s stable and quieter like they claimed. Not sure about cost, guessing expensive, and MDF or Plywood (with relief cuts) will be better bang for buck.

904

I don’t think there’s any question that V wheels CAN work fine, and do in plenty of the budget printer designs.

I’ve had the same set of V wheels running on my Ender 3 Pro for 4 years now. Maybe I was lucky and just happened to get them installed correctly up front, but have never really had a problem with them. I also print at very slow speeds, and not in a heated enclosure, which I think has an effect on their longevity.

The guy in the video is probably right, but I’m guessing they aren’t using the same cheap V-wheels that a lot of these other builds are using.

I see on the OpenBuilds store, the Heavy Duty V wheels are $7 each. If these are the types of wheels you have to buy to get the same longevity and performance as the rails, then the rails are a no-brainer to me.

400mm Linear rails are like $24. If I’m going to end up saving less than $10 per rail, it’s not worth the potential hassle for me, and I would go with the rails every time.

Unless for some reason those rails we buy off Amazon, the “cheap linear rails”, have some kind of defects in them that make print quality suffer, the ease of setup and ease of maintenance over the life of the printer would put me in the “rails as a preference” category.

It’s also a total cost of ownership thing. Even if those wheels are $1-2 a piece, if you end up with 3, 4, or 5 sets in your printers lifetime, it all adds up.

Peace of mind, to me, is worth the little bit extra money just to not have to worry about “did I tension those wheels correct” or “did the wheels get too worn and are causing my current issues” or whatever.

I could be wrong, but I haven’t heard of anyone complaining about these types of things with the rails.

I totally understand the argument when dealing with distances like Dan’s 1500mm rails, but it seems like the shorter the rails are, this is less of a price issue

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905

My short answer is, I’m not sure there is a wrong answer, as much as needing more datapoints to know what’s right for you. Read on if you want me to put a damper on your Superbowl Sunday.

Yeah, I saw the same guy (pretty sure at the same show) talking about their multi filament add on in development, on a different video. And was conflicted if I should have shared the video, basically claiming the same thing, that one company has chosen wheels over rails for what sounds like logical reasons.

The reasons I didn’t share is, I’m not in a position to disagree with anything he’s stating. Wondered more if I use my machines enough to matter to ME, or see the differences. Taking a machine from hobbyist level, to engineering level, I can see where the data could matter, but was this enough data for decision makers to help Ryan make a decision.

But to quote the phrase used here often, how much of that is “chasing zeros”. (Maybe the wrong phrase to coin.) But how much value is added getting the “best” materials vs driving the cost up, like already discussed on deferent points on this thread? Or like already started, is it possible to design and allow both, so there’s options? Even though I disagree with the statement V1E has already encountered once last year, we already know Ryan was “beaten up” for having too many options. :man_facepalming:t3:

I didn’t say anything, because to me with my usage, maybe not an issue? But I am still curious to know the data, that isn’t or doesn’t seem to be presented. Aka. Does operating temperature play a factor (I would think it does)? How often (I’m guessing rated in hours) of use do the wheels have, before the need for replacement? Same for greasing the linear rails? Or time before they fail and need replaced? Etc? And where are these “quality” rails vs the “cheap” rails. Which ones have I been using? :thinking:

To where it seemed like a rabbit hole for me, and each would have their place and use cases. Could end up the age old discussion with opposing view points, and I walked away and didn’t point out what I saw/heard. I’m also not designing awesome machines like Ryan. I’m only upgrading machines to be lower maintenance based on my viewpoints (like replacing LM08UU bearings with Drylin equivalents, so I don’t have to grease or scratch a rod, due to my laziness).

I mean it sounds logical, and in the videos defense they do say “their testing”, not trying to convince people, as much as explaining why they made choices, but the data doesn’t seem to be shared, to validate their testing to anyone else, or to understand the parameters of the testing. Sort of like the “MDF for panels” comment, that you can’t sell it, even if it’s the best panel. Well I personally thought that was marketing’s job, to educate people to understand why they want to buy a MDF panel, “it’s the best dampening material for the job”. I do also understand the general public not wanting to listen, after watching a “conversation” on “next door” talk about 90’s solar panel knowledge, after just watching a person’s YT on his New Jersey installation, not paying a cent for electricity for the last year, but living in a area, that only has 265 sunny days a year.

Sorry guys, maybe I woke up on the rant side of the bed this morning, looking back at the length I’ve added to this thread.
Have an enjoyable Super Bowl Sunday, regardless of teams, or the possibility of not caring about the NFL at all. :v:

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906

So, the 2pt plate does have a larger hole to support CAM lock. 3pt plate also has an outboard cam lock.
Wanted to be able to put these on without having to remove the sides and backs…

Will also need some kind of standoff to maintain geometry with the 13mm combined height of the rail and MGN12H bearing block. I have some .5" baltic birch just begging to be used here.

The three point plate - attached, would probably work for X&Y, but would increase the weight of the gantry substantially. Not ideal, but it could possibly save some money on rails. The four holes in the middle might need to be moved for the XY too. I have not checked to make sure they align, just assuming if the holes hit the center of the rail, everything will line up.

I don’t think three points are required for the Z-Axis mostly because you would effectively have six points for the bed. I would worry that there isn’t enough clearance at the bottom, and you might loose some z-axis travel distance.

I will cut these out a little later today. @vicious1 , I hope it is OK to borrow this shape. It is perfect for a part with three wheels. Photos to follow soon.

v-groove_plate_3P

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907

That’s me :smile: . There’s some thing distracting half the population? Perfect time to go for a hike and enjoy the wilderness.

Having options is good, esecially for something like Ryan’s repeat printer. We all tweak it to suit our needs and that’s just fine. Ryan uses it as a farm machine for his production, so first and formemost it should work for HIM. Then the rest of us can tag along and do our thing.

Can’t wait to see the next steps and get to where I can hopefully finish building a repeat. (Started poking away with the V3, may actually complete a V5.)

That will be interesting to see! It would need some engraving, of course, in that center area to add the you-know-what part of the logo. :smile:

Yes, This! 1/4" aluminum plate is way too massive for a big build plate base.
Somewhere around here I’ve got some example plates I grabbed when they were being closed out by Microcenter- I"ll post a picture of that here in a little while before I head out to enjoy the day where folks are huddled aroudn thier TVs for some reason. :smile:

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908

That is 6 points total, but they are not rigidly connected so there is only 2. It needs at least 3, and those plates melt my heart, So perfect!!!

yes yes yes!

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909

https://www.printables.com/model/751366-mp3dp-printed-z-axis-substitution

If you needed something to print…I added extruded models. Not pretty, but they could work

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