I am curious if anyone has built a modified lowrider but with a bigger budget. I have seen more robust software on bigger DIY machines but I don’t know too much about them. To me, getting the conviences and features in the software is a big part of the end goal. There are a lot of home built machines on Youtube, but no plans or instructions.
Top question - What is the best software / controller platform for the next level up?
If you could upgrade motors, what would you go to?
If you could upgrade belt drive, what would you change to?
Would you stay with Lowrider style or change to a more traditional gantry?
Would you stay with skate wheels or change to some kind of linear rail?
Probably dreaming, but a tool changer would be awesome of course
Ideally, I want to use my Lowrider to build the ‘Next Level Up’ machine that is a little more reliable and takes a whole lot less tinkering once it is built.
If you want less tinkering buy an Avid CNC. You could also build a Volksfräse, but the LowRider is completely fine for a beginner (and also someone advanced).
What conveniences and features are you looking for specifically?
Probing? Center finding? Surface mapping? Programmable spindle speed?
What kind of jobs are you doing, or do you want to do, where the features matter?
Mechanical upgrades for the most part are not very helpful because the machine is more-or-less balanced where none of the parts are weak points, nor are any parts massively overbuilt. Upgrading to significantly higher strength will basically require building a whole new machine.
Not the LR3 but my LR2 was upgraded to more powerful motors and a more rigid plastic a while back. It did run a little better but that also could have been because it was rebuilt with more care on my end. No evidence the upgrades made any significant difference.
Agree with @jamiek that upgrades and mods should be based on what your goals are. The base machine is well thought out and complete as is. However, if you want to mod things just to learn about the craft there’s no shame in that. You’re probably going to waste a lot money and time going that route but you will learn. Kinda like college
For me, the LR has been a great tool but takes up a bit too much room in my small workshop. Looking to convert to a Primo or go even smaller with Millennium Milo.
This is what makes V1 special. Many people can make a DIY design. Very few can also make it simple, affordable and document it so that anyone can build it.
@brenavich980 100,000% agree!!! I would have never stepped off the cliff to attempt this without V1. But now that I am sucked in . . . . . I want to build bigger, better, more reliable, etc, etc.
I think the original goal was to stay under a $1000, but what upgrades would you do if you had another $1000 to spend?
All the rest does not really do anything. Aluminium sideplates don’t make it more rigid. Maybe aluminium strut plates with just the holes and not the keyholes. That might make it a tad more stiff. Otherwise I’d really have a look at the Volksfräse (Volksfräse VF1 - sir-phils Webseite!). You can also cut the parts yourself and it is around ~1500€ maybe.
Is that an L3 with both Y axis still on a belt drive? You are making me re-think my choice to stay with L2!!! I love your solution as an alternative to a tool changer. I agree, I tend to only use 2 or at most 3 bits. Is your build documented anywhere?
To answer your question. The biggest thing I am looking for is dependability. Right now, every time I set up a piece to be cut I am clinching my teeth waiting for something to fail. Last night it was my Z1 stepper. It got hung up on something/failed and made the gantry go all out of whack. 0.2 seconds later, my bit was about an inch deeper than it was supposed to be on one side. Completely ruined about $50 worth of walnut.
My thoughts for possible upgrades are
Bigger / better steppers - I feel like a lot of errors I get are caused because one of the 5 motors skips or fails in some other way
Self Squaring - Every time I turn it off, the next time I use it I have to re-square everything, especially the z1 and z2 steppers. I was thinking about wasting a bit of space at one end and building a ‘rack’ where it can sleep in a square position so when turned back on it basically starts from the same position every time.
Better software for controlling the unit - I am still reading about it, but possibly upgrading to something like Mach4 to just have more features in the software prebuilt in the machine.
Possibly getting away from the skate wheels and use linear rails, similar to what was done with the L3, but I wouldn’t mind spending a bit of money to get the bearing kind.
Lastly, getting away from belt drive on the y axis at least. However, I am not sure to what would be a reasonable upgrade. Honestly, having better stepper motors might make the belts be ok.
Those have often been discussed and don’t do anything. The limit is the machine itself then. You can already srew the machine up with the motors that are in it if you really want to. You can also achieve insane speeds with the ones we use (look at mine or @stevempotter’s builds/cut speeds). If the steppers skip steps something else is off. I’ve never had them do that.
I am using Estlcam as the PP as well, it works great but needs a USB cable that sometimes fails. Besides that it is great to use, has got a touchscreen mode, touchplate support, Controller support, support for Keyboards to control the CNC… So it’s quite nice.
Well honestly if I HAD to spend an extra $1000 (remember I have an LR2) I’d put that money towards spare parts, tools, and possibly a controllable spindle like @Tokoloshe mentioned.
Probably not the best person ask though. My use case is limited to woodworking fixtures, jigs and the occasional sign.
You can also set up values in Marlin to make the machine perfectly square when you home the machine. So it already has an auto squaring feature built into the firmware.
If you are over 1mm in difference you can use the terminal on your SKR Pro or a USB connection and repetier host to add a homing offset. “M666 Y0.5” will move your Y1 stepper 0.5mm away from the stop block after it homes. “M666 Y-0.5” will move your Y2 stepper away instead. You want to move the longer dimension side away from the block. A good first guess is the difference in your measurements (or you can use a trig calculator and add a bit because your end stops are further away than the dots). Now Use “M500” to save it to the EEPROM. Re-home X and Y and test it again.
It can be frustrating when you skip steps. For sure. But those Z motors should have plenty of room to not skip steps. I put a huge vise on top of my gantry and it still lifted it fine. The Z motors are stronger when they move slow. Make sure you check you grub screws (the motor can’t do anything if those are loose). You can potentially get more torque at top speed by using a 24V PSU (and a very small possibility of thicker motor wires). Make sure your drives are cool and you can turn up the current as long as the motors don’t go over about 50C. These steppers and drivers are very strong and spending more money isn’t really going to make that better.
This is the standard for LR3. The dualLR firmware has two Z endstops at the top end of the movement so the Z gets square to X (X is the core moving across the gantry. Y is the gantry moving on the table in the standard firmware). There is still a Z probe to set Z=0 to the top of the workpiece after you have squared the Z. The dual Y also has dual endstops for auto squaring.
I haven’t used Mach 3 or 4. But from the stuff I’ve seen it is not at all simpler. You need to configure windows to be closer to real time (updates during a cut? No thanks). And the software is meant to be more generic, not easier to use. Grbl or estlcam firmware is easier (maybe) but not by much. And you still need a computer always connected. Using a screen and an sd card is probably the easiest way to avoid problems. The truth is: the more users, the easier the experience is. That is the underlying truth about most software. And the more you pay, the fewer users you get. The high end machines are run by machinists and there are classes on it. Marlin and grbl have 10x as many users, at least. So stuff is generally good. Iphones have 1000x users and the software is much easier to use. You can’t get an iphone level of experience with CNC. It just doesn’t exist.
The LR3 uses one linear rail. The reason that that 2 are over constrained. Any error in laying out the second rail to the first means it will track poorly and possibly rise up onto the top of the rail. The LR3 also supports using 608 bearings for the non constrained side. It is a big improvement.
Belts are fast. They have limited stretch. They do have backlash. Leadscrews or ball screws would be $$$$ and they need to ve set up perfectly or they will bind. The result will be slow and require more maintenance to keep them clean and lubed.
Here are my recommendation:
A) Build an LR3. With auto squaring and the linear rail, it will solve several of your issues. The IDEX is cool, but it is about 2x more complicated and you’ve stated your goal is less stress.
B) Use threadlocker on your grub screws and make sure those babies are set.
C) Use a 24V psu, add fans to the controller and drivers, tune the current to the motors so they are not over 50C. Use weights to determine how much more they can lift or move before and after tuning. You can hang a weight on a string and make the machine pull the string xto ccmeasure X and Y. You can do this on your LR2 for fun. At the extreme, you can add cooling to your motors, but I am not certain that will work (I haven’t seen that done with pre/post tests). If these changes make a difference for you, please post the results.
D) Invest in “process”. Start with a log that you never lose. Record what you’re cutting, what speeds and DOC, and the results. Then make an actual checklist. This should check everything that has bitten you so far. (Is the work secure? Is the Z set? Jog to the size of the part and make sure nothing is binding. Is the bit sharp? Are the motors hot?) You will get a lot more confidence in a short amount of time using it. After a few dozen jobs, this log and checklist will be valuable IP for you. You can have checklists for job start, tool change, job end, job pause/resume. It will help you with any future CNC work. I wish I was better about doing this myself.
E) Spend money on bits. A dull or poor bit makes everything else look bad. The spindles, the motors, the gantry all suffer if your bit is just dull or doesn’t have good CNC cutting geometry.
Thoughts on considering more expensive 2 start lead screw instead of the stock 4 start for builds optimized for torque/reliability with tougher materials over rapid speeds?
I appreciate @Claib1’s questions, and all the details from folks explaining how balanced LR3 is. Some of them could be their own topic.
Would be nice to see a clear prioritized roadmap of checklist stock items (stepper specs, wire sizes, etc…) and recommended mods (WHAT) to help optimize Maker’s time/cash spent chasing the right things (WHY, and WHY not) to achieve more reliable faster acceptable quality cuts.
What would that guidance look like, a LR3 doc “recommended mods”? Hard to concisely capture/summarize that info in a forum topic in a way that every reader will come away with the same perspective on actions to take. Actions will differ for each person’s needs and situation, but ideally everyone quickly has a common shared understanding of various options, and their associated pros/cons/risks.
@jeffeb3
Do you ever sleep??? You are always so quick to reply. Your insight is so appreciated. Thank you.
I am definitely going to take a look at the LR3 again. I do remember one thing that made me steer away was the limitations on cutting depth. Maybe I wasn’t understanding it right but it didn’t seem like it gave much room for taller pieces. For example if I have a box or something that was say 5in tall, could it still carve something on top of that? Currently I am just doing some cutting boards, but even those are about 2.5 inches thick and as I recall that seemed like it would max out the LR3.
B - I have checked those several times. I had problems in the past with them. That topic seems to come up a lot. Is there an upgrade to that part? Seems like a common fail point.
C - I have never heard of ‘tuning’ a stepper motor. I would love any information you can share on how to do that. (or what that even means)
C - I wonder if heat is playing into this more than I am thinking about. My machine is my garage which can be quite warm sometimes. I don’t have any kind of fan on the control board. Do those over heat easy?
D - Great idea
E - I think my bits are ok. Clearly I am not an expert, but I don’t here any excessive noise from the spindle working harder or signs of any burning.
When I say skipped steps on the motors, I mean that for example the Z1 should have gone up 10 mm and you can hear it bind up/grind and not go the full 10 mm. Then from there, everything is lost the correct positions and you might as well hit stop. It is never consistent when it happens but every time I have noticed it, there is a noise associated with it.
You could build LR3 with taller YZ plates, but would need to carve MUCH slower at that height.
Better option, assuming you only want to carve a surface high up, would be build a stock LR3, then can build a “drop table”, and/or, temporarily/permanently raise the Y axis using layers of MDF strips. The lower the LR3 Z axis during cuts/carves, the faster/more-reliable the machine will be.
You could also build a Volksfräse, but the LowRider is completely fine for a beginner (and also someone advanced).
Or even the series with a quick change system, but those are only available with ER16 collets.
