I will point out too, (not trying to be a buzz kill) that there is a limit here, and larger, more rigid tubing will mean everything else will grow too. Plastic, hardware, and eventually motors and electronics. Maybe it will mean we can start replacing larger machines, but the entry level hobbyist should be more than happy with the current tubing.
My hope with rigid emt or 1" emt is to make the thing cheaper, not more rigid, so we can use rigid emt for a low rider or a large mpcnc instead of steel tubing.
It will be easy for someone to think a 1 1/4" machine would be better, and I am guessing it would not.
EMT conduit is not that common in Europe. I never knew it even exists before I moved over the pond. Most houses are either brick or concrete and use PVC tubing for wire runs. If it’s a wooden building then wires are either exposed or channels are made for non-combustive material such as plaster to provide a fireproof barrier. Most stuff sold there is metric but strangely galvanized steel water pipes are measured and sold in inches. The bottom line is that I don’t think EMT is readily available everywhere so some version that uses metric tubing still has to exist.
Not for nothing, but it seems like more than one of us has started with an mpcnc and decided we need a stronger mpcnc and /or a lowrider and/or a Tormach
Seriously, I’ve seen several designs that cost more, but are influenced by the mpcnc/lowrider. Often, the creators even thank Ryan for helping them get started. Artisan 3, gigantic bastard, plastic monstrosity all come to mind. That’s in addition to people who have started here and moved to things like root3 (I’m still not convinced it’s better/faster than a well built mpcnc) or independent original designs.
Are we 100% SURE that V1 should remain strictly in the ‘new hobbyist’ space?
Ryan, I’ve looked at a lot of designs, a bunch before I found this and everything I could find ever since. I’m really starting to think something special is happening in that brain of yours.
Is there room here for a second class of machines for the experienced hobbyist? Bonus points if there is an upgrade path from mpcnc or lowrider.
Yeah, that came to light at some point that is why we ended up with 25 and 25.4. The metric countries that had conduit was 25, the ones that did not seemed to be able to get imperial SS at 1". I would love to cut it down to either two versions or a smaller range and make it adjustable. Right now I have it better fitting to 25 and 25.4 with one set of parts, but I would love to stretch that to 1" emt as well but only if that . That can bring down price a lot.
I was more interested in the 1" emt for the LR I don’t like the price point of SS and it kinda goes against the my design philosophy. I rushed to get it released and did not think it through enough. I know I can optimize the cost more. It is also turning out to be a contender for the MPCNC as I might be able to make a few cross compatible parts and make it ever easier for “manufacture”.
Now that we have machines that work well. I am trying to take my time poke at everything and see what I can do and keep everything reasonable.
I see a bunch of new machines out there and my gut still gives me the exact same reaction I had before all this started. Too expensive to impulse buy and only use once and a while, or takes very specialized tools to make. I enjoy being the inexpensive easy to build and source machine. I think that has become my priority number one (probably always has been). I was proud of the fact we did not need any specialized tools other than a 3D printer and a lot of tinkerers already had a ton of the parts…the LR got away from that with the plates. I also thought only people with an MPCNC would ever make a LR so they could cut their own plates like the MP3DP. That was a bad assumption on my part both turned out to be stand alone projects.
The LR is going to wait a bit because I am getting consumed (in the best way possible) with the MPCNC choices. I am going through and re-confirming my previous design choices or disproving them, or just changing them to hear people quit asking about them. I would love to share where I am at but I think it is best to wait until I have a complete alpha/beta ready.
DEFINITELY NOT! There has to be a reason to move up though. I can not afford to have a (for example) $1500 machine sit idle in my garage. The hardest part is after using a build for a while, or building it a few times I only see the flaws I made and NEED to correct them. Luckily I am not like some designers that can not release something until they think it is perfect.
I actually know if I think something is perfect it tends to flop. When I made my ramps case I thought I had shifted the 3D printing world of design on it’s head. I thought I was some sort of super genius. Not other things at that time had any shape to them at all. Just boxes with screws. I seriously made my fancy animation and released my files and thought things were about to go crazy. I was preaching to all my friends about how things were about to change…hahahahaha, hardly anyone ever downloaded it. I learned to reel in my assumptions. Keep making what I wanted don’t worry if others needed/wanted it or not.
The most expensive part is the control board, I do not see anything lacking in that department. It would be cool if other firmware were more of an option but I think that is just a matter of some of us finding a reason to put in the time to make that happen not an actual limitation.
Thanks…probably more of an obsession and determination thing more than anything but I am trying to embrace that and stay ahead/relevant in this space.
That, I think, Is exactly what I want to happen. Either the MPCNC is enough with maybe a few size tweaks, or you go out and spend $10K/$100k++++. I think that means I am doing my job. If people were leaving here to get a $1k machine I would consider that a fail.
I guess I don’t really stop to consider how much cash it takes to develop a $1500 machine and then keep a $1500 machine strictly for R&D. But then, there’s a reason I work for somebody else, too.
Obsession and determination are the only reason I’ve gotten anywhere at all. My wife makes fun of me all the time for it and tries to convince me that I’m really smart. Really, I’m smart enough to know I’m not.
I think the MPCNC is a really good balance and a higher cost, higher stiffness “big brother” would detract from the overall system. It would have a good chance of being percieved as “better” even though the cost/benefit is worse for most people. Ryan can insist until he’s blue in the face that its a specialty item only if you really need it but nobody will listen. It’s got NEMA 23s and ball screws so it’s better, right? (Dual endstops anyone?)
Not only is the big brother a worse cost/benefit position for most people, but it also makes the MPCNC appear worse by comparison, where the “budget” model is a weakness and not a strength.
As for an upgrade path, I think a rich family of after-market upgrades does make sense, and these enhance the value of the base offering rather than detracting from it.
I am finding there are some evolutionary niches that have settled around certain features or parameters. NEMA17s and inexpensive drivers paired with 8bit microcontrollers. That is a nice blend of features that gets you a certain level of power and speed for a certain price.
I’m finding out that simply because I had some NEMA23s already, didn’t mean the existing control ecosystem would cost the same. You are getting into more expensive drivers that require different power supplies and cooling solutions. It’s another level of cost/benefit.
Then start talking about spindles. The current MPCNC spindle of choice fits this ecosystem. It does limit one to certain speeds and feeds. But going to a beefier spindle doesn’t just require a stronger support system, but then gets into the area where PID control isn’t not just a nice option, but one that you need to have.
Having a more powerful spindle will allow for faster work, but it changes the equation of everything else required by a CNC machine.
Would you all agree that spending $2000 on a tricked out large bed, Lowrider will get you a better machine that the $2000 spent on an X-Carve?
Yes. It is a question of thermodynamics for me. Xcarve is spending money on marketing, training, HR, giving discounts, especially to larger customers, that is all coming out of the pocket of the average consumer. Plus, I don’t think Ryan charges enough, and he can’t charge what xcarve does, because it is all easy to source, so many people would just source it themselves.
I would also like the MPCNC to stay in its current “niche”. So no ballscrews, no NEMA 23, etc.
Zip ties are a different story. For a couple of bolts and a little bit more plastic, you could have adjustable and easily removable belt tensioners. This is nice functionality to have.
Also, there are many after-market upgrades, but it’s hard to know which ones are relevant and which ones work best. A relatively easy way to make the MPCNC better is to choose one particular design for each kind of upgrade, and either incorporate it into the standard parts (e.g. belt tensioners) or maybe offer it as a V1 engineering supported/recommended upgrade (e.g. a dust shoe). For the latter, it may help to make some small changes to the standard parts so that the upgrade parts can more easily be attached to them, e.g. better mounting points on the gantry for a dust shoe.
Yup, this has been kicked around since literally day one. There are problems with both systems. I am trying to come up with something just so I do not have to talk about them any more. Some people understand how to use the zip ties others just make giant loops and complain about them.
I don’t think that is true. Other than a PID controller I do not think there are any upgrades. There are mods to let you do more specific things but if they made it a better machine for the average user we would be using it if I got permission. This is tricky. Since you mention a dust shoe, this is the hardest for me. I know everyone wants one, but it is by far the largest source of error you can add, next would be Z axis mounted drag chain. This is not the most rigid machine in the world, so if I make an official dust shoe, first it has to be awesome…and fit lots of hoses, second I have to be comfortable that too much accuracy is not lost and at this time I can not promise that. I use my machine as well and having a dust collection would be cool but it does not let you watch you cuts closely, encourages you to leave your machine alone, and it kills accuracy, and they simply take up too much space. A small vac hose is almost as big as a 660, and some guys insist on using 4" vac hoses. The new parts have more screw mounting holes but I still do not have a dust shoe I am comfortable with. I added it to the LR just because those would be very long jobs and there was space. Dust shoe is on the list but not a priority for the MPCNC. If anything I think an air blast and a dust slot on the side is more appropriate. For the work we do and the beginners that should be studying their CAM.
So I really want to include everyone in the new design but with all the hate I now get and all the threats of re releasing all my stuff CC0 I unfortunately feel I need to keep things more under wraps than normal. The regulars around here I am sure know exactly what I am working on as I talk about it in all sorts of threads but I do not have it all in one spot like normal. I hope to include some in a private beta…that hurts my heart I have never done anything like that in private as I do not want to exclude anyone but I assure you there are some nasty people out there and I would be devastated if they messed with my new stuff.
The other day I noticed that thingiverse can recognize variables in openscad designs… so maybe a future design could be based on a variable tube size and then users can select the tubing size that is available to them (or they feel they need) for thier build. To be honest though, openscad is not for the faint of heart, BUT it could resolve the imperial vs metric problem in tubing sizes and allow users to experiment with different sizes.
Releasing the design files creates massive headaches for Ryan. I had contemplated the possibility of a parametric stl generator similar to the thingiverse functionality, but with the difference that the design files are kept private. So watermarks are not so trivial to remove for example. In the end I think it still creates problems with too many unofficial copies reflecting bad choices and then people have problems. That discussion is here.
