Shipping is the worst part

You software guys have it made, now that the days of selling physical disks are over, you do not have to deal with shipping.

I am breaking up with USPS International shipping. - Rant you can skip it this section. TL;DR USPS seems to no longer want to ship international.

Since November shipping has gotten much harder and harder for me. really the last 12 months. The last few months have bled all the profits out of the business and really made this feel like work for the first time since this all started. International sales are extremely high in comparison to domestic lately, the issue is USPS has made a habit out of not shipping them. I can not even tell you how many international packages come back with just 100% BS reasons for not shipping or no reason at all.

I get packages back for ā€œforbidden itemsā€ (what could possibly be forbidden about an LR hardware kit?) No specifics given. 90% just come back with no stickers. Some say ā€œno air freightā€ (no batteries or liquids involved). Some say ā€œincomplete documentationā€ (computer generated, all info is there, including HS codes for every item). I could go on and on but I am getting frustrated even writing this up.

I have tried talking with several different people from USPS to figure out what is happening and in person, over the phone, or email I get nothing of any relevance. I once brought one in had them try to figure out why it was not delivered, they reused the same exact label, shipped it again (despite me saying it would not work) only for that same box to show back up at my door saying a completely different BS reason it would not ship.

Each time a box comes back that is an instant $46-$120 lost, then I need to spend time~5-10 minutes repacking and shipping them again so that loss doubles to another $46-$120 plus time. Now I can spend 25+ minutes filling out the USPS claim form. That gets me a phone call from a private phone number when you don’t answer that the case is closed, no money refunded. If you have a business with your information public I can assure you, you will never answer a single one of the dozen or so private number phone calls you get per day. So next up is appeal the closed case (another 10-15 minutes of paper work online), this time for some reason they do not call you they just either accept or deny it again. At that point if they accept it I have gotten anywhere from $3(?) up to nearly all of my shipping refunded, that refund comes in the form of a paper check in 1-3 months time.

Needless to say every returned box damages my reputation (Every returned package equals at least 1 email from the customer saying ā€œwhy has my item been delivered to California USA??ā€) because of the much slower shipping, nearly an hour of time lost in paperwork and repacking and new international shipping paperwork, and always guarantees I lose money on the transaction.

My solution

Step 1- For most orders I have now been using UPS, funny not a single returned box yet. The downside is I have to rework the shop to make the labels, use different boxes, and either pay for a pickup or take them to a UPS store. Unfortunately, that means I think I will only be doing international shipments every other day. Or maybe even just twice a week.

Step 2- I have a 200 unit test run of Lowrider kits being made by the LDO motors crew, and I will be having those shipped internationally from China, directly. This helps with my workload, shipping times, and import fees for the customer. This also saves from me paying the first import fee to the US where normally I would pack them up myself but that cost goes into paying to have them kitted up directly. If this goes well the selection can be expanded, and if it goes really well The inventory can be spread around many fulfillment centers around the globe to further decrease fees and shipping times. For me, this equals slightly less profit, in trade of less work packing and shipping. We will see if the international shipping from another company makes any extra paperwork for me. This step is still about 3 weeks out fro the test run.

My apology

This loss of profit has been slowly inching higher and higher since last year and that really makes staying positive and fun hard at times. I will be in a great mood and a box shows up as a return and that is just incredibly irritating. I have been a bit more distant just to make sure when I am around I am in a great mood. With that being said, I am sorry for being around a bit less, but I promise you I am still very much in love with this project, and all the people that hang out. I just had to spend all my effort trying to find a solution for this.

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USPS, when they feel like shipping stuff to Canada is great, as Canada Post often doesn’t bother with collecting fees and taxes, and when they do, they only charge $9.95 in brokerage-like fees (up from $7 awhile back). USPS is no good if it’s not reliable for you, though, as you’ve found.

The Pitney Bowes mail forwarding service that eBay uses is ok (I’ve never had anything not make it across… batteries, random electronics, servers, network gear, etc.), but they don’t issue brokerage/tax invoices, so businesses can’t claim expenses they otherwise could.

Hopefully via UPS Worldwide Saver, UPS Worldwide Expedited, UPS Worldwide Express, or UPS Worldwide Express Plus if shipping internationally (rather than from your China source)… those include brokerage fees in the label cost. UPS Ground is both expensive and a pain in the ass if you’re relying on them to clear the item.

I’m not sure what the US rate is, but UPS Smart-Pickup (Automatic Pickup) in Canada is CAD$7.75/week, regardless of the number of times/items they pickup each week. Might be an option for you… probably about $5/week.

Also, I’ve found that NetParcel.com rates for UPS and FedEx are typically far cheaper than the rates offered on my UPS or FedEx accounts; so I typically send via NetParcel and ā€˜receive’ (to pay taxes, etc.) on my UPS and FedEx accounts.

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That was actually the last straw. I got back a Canadian shipment and I lost my mind because I know most of you prefer it. That day I stopped, went home early and the next day figured out a easier way to ship UPS.

I will see what the deal is soon. The next Canadian shipment I will see the price differences between those services, and the current USPS rates I am charging.

I put in 4/boxes a day it was $15/day. But you have to schedule one day ahead so some shipments will be sitting either way. I have a UPS sort of near by but the parking is brutal. I will have to see how many shipments I get and what I can actually do.

Shopify and pirate ship both are less expensive than the commercial rates they offered me initially but as I get a month or two in I was advised to call in and talk with a rep to see what sort of deal they can actually work, the automated stuff is just to get you started I guess. Hopefully that includes a pickup or two per week.

I appreciate the input!!!

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That explains me beating your ass in the monthly leaderboards… :stuck_out_tongue:

I can understand that it sucks a lot, but it is nothing I am suprised of, seeing how Dejoy has tanked USPS and tried to make it ā€œmore efficientā€ (money-wise…) (and now is leaving the sinking ship).

I hope the international shipping via a direct partner is going to work out for you! It is definitely going to make the whole LR much more appealing for us Europeans.

Did you find a partner for 3D prints yet? With the Core One, my printer is going to be enclosed and my wife can’t complain any longer… :stuck_out_tongue:

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Not yet. I need to see if this hardware kit works first. If it does I need to decide what to do about printed parts and boards. Since those are lighter they ship reasonably via USPS and they will fit in one box.

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Are you going to lock her inside it? :open_mouth:

On a more serious note - I am both sorry you have this situation @vicious1, and glad that it hasn’t beaten you.

There are many US companies which simply don’t offer international shipping, and that’s been happening for decades. I’ve always thought of it as arrogance, but am getting to a place where forgiveness is close at hand! :wink:

It’s difficult to avoid politics in this situation - the problem spans several terms of each political party, and is a symptom of something that it’s difficult to put a finger on, but the irony of the situation beggars belief.

At what point does Amazon become viable?

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I had some stuff shipped USPS October 31 that didn’t get handed over to Canada Post until January 31 with the USPS ā€œreasoningā€ that the Canada Post strike (November 15 to December 17) was the reason. I received other items much earlier that were sent both around the same time and later from around the world. Not sure of your timing on things… maybe it was strike related and USPS didn’t want to store the package so made up a reason to send it back.

Here’s the current UPS rate sheet for Canadian brokerage services billed to receivers from page 115 of the current rate guide (USDCAD exchange rate is currently 1.43):

Even if the rate for the brokerage included services turns out to be higher than UPS Standard, aside from being slightly faster, it’s less of a f-me-around. With UPS Standard you have to confirm that you want them to be the clearance broker, and if you don’t do it fast enough, it causes chaos/returns. With the brokerage included services you get a pending delivery notice and a ā€œpay us online now!ā€ message. It’s less confusing for people that aren’t used to it if they can at least avoid the confirm the broker step (which often requires a phone call or you catching their call).

For a less chaotic entry to Canada from the US via UPS, I would recommend the brokerage included services and making sure that you include the recipient email address (along with their phone number) on the label so that they get email notifications about having to pay taxes/etc. prior to delivery.

When you do get to talking to an account rep at UPS, you may want to ask about prepaid import fees and taxes if you’re sending ā€œenoughā€ packages to Canada (that it would make figuring it out worth it). Whenever I order by 6pm from Newark it ships UPS Saver from Gaffney, SC and arrives the next morning (2 hours north of Toronto) without me having to interact with UPS or pay anything… less of a chance of customer confusion and packages coming back your way.

Or just ship from China. :slight_smile: With the US-Canada tariff situation it may be cheaper, unless you’re already marking items you ship as products of China.

Sad you are having this issues. Thanks god i can buy things from you and ship them to a shipping forwarder located in FL. It makes things so much easy

From the get go this has always been in the back of my mind. It really is difficult, no one is happy. I get emails asking about lowering shipping costs, pissed off people about import tax, vat, how long it takes. It really is 90% unpleasant to deal with. The other 10% of seeing my stuff being used all over the world makes it incredibly worth it and more than makes up for all of it. The turning point is when it is pulling every penny of profit and getting extra irritated emails because things are taking even longer.

Selling kits in bulk to a reseller is pretty frustrating as most of them really want to double their money…I don’t even do that.

I mean we have to be honest here, it is as long as mail has been a thing, it just keeps getting harder and harder. I really can’t blame anyone in particular here. If I wanted to blame someone it would be the shipping companies and the integration software. If they want the shipper to use them it comes down to who integrates the most complete with the largest ecommerce software, shopify. Every country is always going to have it’s own requirements until we get the ā€œeuroā€ of import laws, where most countries just adopt the same requirements and fees. UPS, FedEX, DHL all still seem to be working just fine, something has just clearly happened to USPS and it is getting worse fast. When at least one in 5 international shipments comes back that is a problem.

Amazon is not ever remotely feasible. When they first came out they REQUIRED that your items had to be priced the lowest on amazon only. That stipulation has gone away but they still hold your income for 90 days and accept returns for any reason at all. If they decide to ship my items to another warehouse, I have to pay for that, and I can not stop them from doing it. I stopped taking Amazon payments because they refunded a customer 100%, that ā€œjust decided they didn’t want the mpcnc anymoreā€. No issues, no return required, no nothing. I have no idea how that even works for people that sell on it.

OMG that was a mess. They held a bunch of packages, they returned a bunch of packages, I had so many emails happening while that was going down. That was when the issues really started to ramp up. That is when I first integrated UPS so I could still ship there. Dang, I seriously blocked that out of my head.

I am using UPS, I most likely will be able to add an option for duties paid but I am not there yet, but my fullfilment company mostly likely is not. If that is the case It might be less expense to use them. The rough shipping price guide I have already shows the shipping rates exactly the same from here or China. If the sales increase, they have a center in Canada and they will import some there so it will actually just ship direct. I have to ship more than 100 boxes to ā€œunlockā€ that feature but I am not sure if that is total or per country, we are still finalizing the paperwork but we need exact dimensions and weights.

Email is usually on there, phone numbers are only there for certain countries.

It is crazy, 10 years ago those companies were so shady, I had a whole warning about them because so many shipments just never got delivered. it was mostly a scam. Now, I have not heard a single bad review in at least 6 years. I get a ton of freight forwarders now. A few months back I was going to start actually reccomending them!!! How is that for a crazy turn of events.

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there still some unreliable companies, but there are others that offers an amazing service like the one i use, they even deliver to my door pay the custom taxes tariff when applicable and i just do a single payment.

we have them available for china and the us. super easy to order from them. they even open the packages and take pictures of the content, if i see an issue they ship them back (the china ones)

USPS have a ton more issues: they mark items as delivered when they arent, when that happens they take 6-10 aditional days to actually deliver. that creates a lot of issues when you report something went wrong.

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Yep, and one country (as far as I can tell) understands that to promote small exports, a subsidy on delivery is necessary. I am often stunned that I can buy things and have them delivered across two hemispheres for a total cost of less than what the cost of local postage would be.

Is it time to think about charging for custom firmware?

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Yeah totally support that. @jeyeager made something amazing with the IDEX test i was doing with fluidnc. It takes all the guessing out of the equation (and the edits off the gcode). He said it was done quickly and no hard stuff involved but man :clinking_glasses:

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I’ve been telling Ryan for a while now that he’s too worried about making the cost for all of us as low as possible- not just shipping but the parts. We could pay a little more to adequately compensate him for the exceptional effort he puts in to make an amazingly affordable machine that performs way above its’ cost class.

The stuff in the V1 shop are all smoking hot deals and anywhere else they would be up to 2x. Jackpot, for example, could easily be $100 based on the value of the community support available to it.

As much as it sucks, this day where all of the enjoyment is sucked out of the business has been writing on the wall for a while now.

Ryan is dead serious when he says that he does this in no small part because he -enjoys- the interaction with all of us and that’s a significant part of the value proposition for him vs just holding down a corporate engineering job.

Speaking for myself, I don’t mind paying a bit more for shipping and packaging if it means we get better access to my friend Ryan in the community. His participation in the community is an essential part of what makes this place what it is.

Also, folks… when you consider the value of the support and the community- consider giving Ryan a little spiff on your orders if you value having all of this community around.

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I’m happy to be here and don’t see myself going anywhere. Every year there is something new, some new hurdle, this one is just particularly crappy and I have had to deal with it the whole time. It is just the main focus this ā€œyearā€ I guess. Challenges make this worth it, I love ā€œfixing thingsā€ and if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

Maybe when the solution is found it will be even more gratifying…but I would much rather be working on a new machine in CAD…

The bright side is when this does get figured out, it should be a solution that lasts a long while.

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sorry about the hassle. But, maybe the solution is much easier than you think. Offer international pick up, and they can fly over and get the parts themselves. :joy:

Seriously though, owning your own business is a scam. Everyone thinks you are doing what you love all day long. The reality is like having every job you never wanted to have, but having more on the line.

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I’ve said repeatedly Ryan should do a road show act like 4x a year go to a part of the world and have a V1 kit festival. Meet the makers in person, have available kits, spend our money on something enjoyable to all of us rather than paying the parcel post operators and fee collectors of the world.

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and have a clown doing ballon animals

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Yes you can all come to the Dominican Republic. :joy: :sun_with_face:
Nvm i own the 4 machines that are posted for my country in the Where are you from thread/map

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Yeah, agreed and was thinking again earlier that a lot of small businesses run into problems (aka operator burnout) when they try to keep prices artificially low, with good intentions of making their product more accessible. It’s typically ultimately unsustainable. Things and services have costs. Having the joy of your work sucked out has costs, too. It has to be worth it for all parties involved in the transactions, otherwise the transactions probabaly shouldn’t happen.

My earlier comments about UPS to Canada were mainly a verbose way of saying don’t ship ground or UPS Standard internationally. It’s not worth it, you’ll have more customers confused or annoyed (and annoying you in return), and potentially more packages returned at your cost.

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Sorry for you living this nightmare.
Before being in North America I did not understand why guys selling used parts always mention ā€œto continental US onlyā€ā€¦ but once being in Canada I was one hour from the border and I quickly choose to be delivered over there in NY and drive back and forth.

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