"RatRider" LR4 Build in the UK

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So I’m a bit stuck.

Tried the Katsu at “max speed” on the basis the dial is probably setting power, and not speed and figured I was smoking bits anyway so what the hell…

Same 21mm/s feedrate and seemed to be getting something that was more like “chips” rather than dust. Better, I think? Still can’t increase feedrate without skipping, even backing off to 1mm DOC, and still dulling bits in minutes…

I’m not chasing speed for its own sake (yet), I’m purely trying to push it faster so I get chipload up and stop ruining bits. They’re cheap, but not “new one every job” cheap…

Theories:

  • The bits are really crap. But they have enough decent reviews on Amazon to suggest that isn’t the case…
  • Katsu router is spinning way too fast? But others seem to have used it with some success. We can rule this one out, or rather, sidestep it, when the Makita gets here.
  • Plywood I’m cutting is secretly made of concrete… (more likely than you’d think…)

Seems like I have more problems when the machine is travelling in Y than in X, so maybe I need to swap the Y motors to the same as I’ve now got on all the other axes - at the moment they’re slightly different. Physically slightly smaller, so presumably less torque? Still have basically zero information on any of them since they’re salvaged… :confused:

Some of my motors have no part numbers at all. Some are Moons “C17HD6039-06N”, discontinued and apparently also absent a datasheet. But I think maybe a little underpowered compared to the V1 shop ones from what little info I’ve been able to dig up and they get warm - not hot, but definitely warm - when running. Is the stock Jackpot config setup so that they should stay pretty much stone cold? (when using the proper motors…)

I have a pair of Motech MT-1705HS200A, which are definitely beefy enough, sadly also so beefy that they won’t fit in the carriages… (60mm long)

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Makita is here already :open_mouth: And it’s definitely noticeably better than the Katsu. Definitely seems that the RPM floor on the Katsu is considerably higher irrespective of what you set the “speed” dial to, whereas the Makita certainly sounds like it has real speed control. Probably doesn’t mean much for handheld use, but definitely meaningful in this application !

Pretty thankful for it being considerably quieter, too. The Katsu was really screaming. Should have got the sound meter out for a proper comparison!

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23

In the latest step closer to the yellow brick road I switched out my mystery bag steppers for steppers that match the “V1E spec” on X and Y.

12000rpm (2ish on Makita dial), 21mm/s feed, 1mm DOC. New 1/8" 1 flute upcut. Plus now in baltic birch not laminated concrete! I’m still losing steps occasionally, and the resultant crash seems to pretty much instantly ruin the bit :confused: Still tracking down some cut height variances that mean it sometimes digs down to about 3mm DOC (seems to vary in a remarkably small area, something weird is going on - maybe my rails aren’t flat?) which means it loses steps for sure, but it sometimes loses steps in other areas, and even 3mm DOC should be fairly achievable as I understand it?

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Yes. I had some bit… ehm, birch plywood before that was really shitty though…

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You’ve gone faster in aluminum, with yours, haven’t you? “Es gibt nur ein Gas, Vollgas.” after all. Can’t imagine any ply being tougher than that???

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Ply does not use trochoidal and it was only a 3mm endmill. So completely different. :slight_smile: There is a whole debate around it in the Froschkönig thread somewhere. :smiley:

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True - though I’m using 1/8" bits at the moment, whereas I know you like a 6mm. The nice 6mm I had got ruined by the knockoff router’s inability to spin at a reasonable rpm. So not expecting to be able to cut super deep in a single pass, but if anything a smaller bit should mean less chance of skipping, I should think?

Not sure I’ve quite got a proper grasp of all the physics involved as yet!

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So I rebuilt my table again. The bearings on the non rail side were wearing a groove in the crappy pine. I expected that, but not quite so quickly! Moved the “struts” from the original MVP frame to within the pallet so the 12mm MDF I’m using as a spoilboard sits directly on the 18mm OSB tabletop rather than sagging slightly between the spans of lumber. Should have done that in the first place, really. And added strips of lacquered plywood to the rail sides, though there’s an annoying join because the piece was about 7ft.

In doing so I noticed my surface is positioned to far toward Ymax to actually be able to usefully reach a full 8ft. To do anything about that I’d need to strip the table down again, and I really don’t feel like it right now…
Speaking of which, is there a good guide for getting the rails and Y belts positioned relative to the board? I still feel like I’m essentially stabbing in the dark when doing so (as a result, my squaring is still pretty abysmal) - probably just missed something obvious!

Also still really struggling to find feeds that are quick enough not to cook bits, but slow enough to not skip steps on my mysteriously underpowered machine. On that particular cut in the picture it seems to consistently skip on what is the top left corner, so X moving towards the centre of the beam. Seems worse that way than coming back, but that could just as easily be positional. That then causes Y to struggle since it’s out of position and trying to cut way too deep. Considering throwing one of the 60mm overkill motors I have onto X, since it seems doable (unlike Y) and if it still skips then I know something really odd is going on, right? :thinking: Wondering about my belt tension being way off - they’re super slack. I did do a “test square” that came out nearly dead on dimensionally, though. So probably not that.

I’m also still struggling to ‘level’ such a large table – honestly I’d cut the machine down to a much smaller size in a heartbeat if it hadn’t already become clear I do actually use the 8x4 working area, it is not just for bragging rights. It’s nowhere close to “true level” (blame the idiot that laid the shed base :raised_back_of_hand: ) but the machine and spoil board appear relatively level in respect to one another. Yet running a cut it becomes obvious that they still aren’t, though. Strange, and enough of a pain that I’m wondering about making the machine smaller anyway and using fixtures for bigger parts, even though that’s most of them…

Need to cut new strut plates, too. I know mine don’t look temporary, but what you sneakily don’t see in my (terrible) photos is that the laser I can use is only A0, so they’re each in two parts. Figured it was better than the 3d printed temp struts, but presumably still far worse than one piece struts. I was about to do it in some MDF I had to hand, but it turns out it’s 8mm. So should I use:

  1. 6mm MDF (would have to buy it, and given how much material I have stashed that feels a bit silly)
  2. 6mm Ply (to hand)
  3. 5mm acrylic (to hand, but “feels way more wobbly” than ply or mdf. Maybe only in dimensions we don’t care about?)
  4. ~5mm alu (can acquire for scrap price but really doubt the current state of my machine is up to any metal)

I also need to work on the routing of my hose, manual intervention is occasionally required at the moment, but it’s nice to not be absolutely drowning in dust! I also did jury rig myself up a touchplate from scrap bits, though. Way better than eyeballing it.

Lots of learning, lots of me shooting myself into the foot by half arsing stuff… That jackpot really needs a case…

Was thinking I would love to build a MP3DPv5 once this gets dialled in, but given how much I’ve struggled to build the “easy” machine I think I’d best not… :upside_down_face:

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To verify “flatness” and “levelling of my beam vs my table” I’ve been using my really long spirit level placed on both. Ignoring the bubble, just using it as a straight edge. This indicates a slight dip, maybe 1mm or so, in the middle of both the rail and the table. Maybe slightly more in the table.

Since the rail and table vary by the same amount, this should be largely ‘cancelled out’ right? Is there something wrong with the way I’m verifying this?

It really seems like something strange is going on with my inability to use what should be fairly safe feeds, particularly now I’m using decent and very very soft ply. I don’t want to use the very conservative settings in the docs as the chipload is too low to be any good for the bit.

Could this be symptomatic of an intermittent wiring issue in some way? I have more joints than is strictly ideal in some of the cables. Could rip them out and start over if we think it would help.

Really wishing I had another local LR owner to knock heads with over a pint… @_Dave how’s that build coming?! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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Still chewing over all this. I’ve got a week stuck in a classroom away from the machine, being taught things I already know, so naturally I’m thinking about it a lot. And I’ve been trawling other people’s build threads and have a few preliminary conclusions that might be of note:

  • Clone routers without electronic speed control seem to cause major problems, not least since they probably have a RPM floor that’s way too high. This was part of my woes, this builder also had issues. See also: 80mm Spindle on LR4? - #65 by Rico_LRS I almost want to suggest adding a warning to the docs, but I think others have been running these clone routers with no issues?
  • Really cheap bits also seem to cause major issues, again, same builder linked above had similar problems to me.

Can’t seem to draw any other significant commonalities of issues from my comparison spreadsheet, but I’m still adding data as I find it.

Guess I should try some better bits, but I’m hesitant to do so as I think the problem with my particular machine is more than that (almost at the point where I can quantify my “worst LR4” comment :confused: ), and I’ll likely just ruin them. Still looking for advice on all the other questions, as well, any thoughts would be really appreciated :slight_smile: Otherwise I’ll just keep talking to myself :laughing:

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That’s not 80mm, it’s a 65mm 800w spindle, and it works fine, I didn’t noticed any difference between the Makita and this one, the main pro is the versatility of the ER11 collet and the possibility to set rpms with the gcode. On my bigger LR4(most used one) I’m still using the Makita.

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Not going to pass any comment on spindles, I don’t use one and probably never will - the forum has automatically used the thread title.

Not trying to suggest spindles > trim routers. I’m specifically talking about the Katsu makita clone and its lack of electronic speed control being a big problem in this specific application. Which you seem to concur with at the bottom of the linked post?

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Another day in the box, another theory dump.

I don’t think it’s the endmills. I used the exact same ones (okay, not literally the same, but the same brand from the same pack even) for cutting the alu plates on the same machine with zero issues. So to me it makes no sense they’d then struggle in wood, even though the machine is not the same. I could try cutting wood on the Superbox with them, to really test the theory, I suppose.

It could, however, be caused or exacerbated by chip packing - even with extract, it struggles a bit with clearing chips from such a narrow deep slot. I’m not sure off the top of my head if the crash issues get worse/more likely the deeper it gets into the cut, but … maybe? Likely?

Overall, I am leaning more and more toward the idea it could potentially be the choice of steppers. Specifically, I’m thinking if my “equivalent” ones may not be in some critical way… I think all the other people that have reported struggling in the same way I have have also been running self sourced steppers. Still working on the data. Now if only I can find that post about comparing “equivalent” steppers I thought I read on here… trying to read every single LR4 build thread has made it rather difficult in the ol’ mental filing system :laughing:

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@FreneticScribbler I think it would be useful for you to summarize the problem(s) you are still currently facing in about three bullet points of a sentence each.

You’ve made a number of changes and have seem some improvements, I think, during your troubleshooting. You’d likely get some input from others if you very briefly state what your current problem(s) are.

A video of your machine in action, demonstrating the problem(s), would also be helpful.

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Good idea. There’s a very good reason I go by “FreneticScribbler” now :sweat_smile: I’ll try my best to be brief.

My current problem is lost steps at what should be very achievable feedrates.

  • 21mm/s feed
  • 1mm DOC (per pass)
  • 18mm overall DOC
  • Approx 12000 rpm (Makita 701 dial at 2)
  • 3.175mm single flute upcut endmill
  • Very very soft ply (“Weezer”)

This then causes more lost steps, then crashing. Smoke. Bad.

I can’t slow down more without going below a good chipload. Nor can I reasonably lower DOC any more.

I think it happens more often when cutting in X. Could equally be from effective DOC variance from my flatish table.

Current machine “variables”:

  • 30mm O/D 1.5mm thick rails
  • Jackpot with genuine TMC2209
  • 5mm ply strut plates (but with split in center…)
  • 5mm alu end plates
  • 17HS4401S steppers (1.7A same as V1E spec, less torque at 43Ncm vs V1E 59Ncm)

Bigger torque difference than I thought - figured I had ‘enough’ vs the ‘more than needed’ the V1E spec are said to be. I should order some Stepperonline 17HS19-2004S1 (matches V1E spec exactly?) shouldn’t I?

I will take a video once I get back to the machine this weekend.

Not the few sentences you requested, but as brief as I can manage >_> Thank you!

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17HS19-2004S1 I think they run at more than Ryan’s, 2 amps Vs 1.7 maybe… they are the ones I have too, so you may not get the full torque without upping your current. So just up the current gradually if you find you have to get more power. Keep checking your driver’s and the stepper’s temperature. You shouldn’t need to increase it much, but I found I did for mpcnc/lr2/lr3. Maybe up to 1 amp or perhaps 1.1 run_amps.

Good luck, I have been following along but not much to contribute.

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Good spot. 1.7A for Ryan’s motors yes. Interesting that my current ones are the same current rating as V1E spec but less torque output.

run_amps currently at 0.8 (stock). Steppers feel warm (not hot) to to the touch in use, strange as it’s well below their rating. It’s hot in my shed, though! Maybe I should borrow a IR camera from work and quantify.

Was earlier pondering monitoring / logging stepper temperature (and current?) using a second ESP. I like graphs…
Should start with manual measurement!

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I can see where those steppers could be problematic, especially on the X axis where it’s only a single stepper. I would run some tests to determine which motors are skipping steps. If it is mostly X, I would be inclined to at least replace that stepper. You can slightly bump up the amps in the config, but need to be careful. May also need to reduce the acceleration.

Are you using Ryan’s config.yaml file or have you modified it?

I would be curious of the difference if you up the dial to 3. While maybe that doesn’t have a great chipload, it could at least rule out too slow for the feedrate.

On my LR3, I still run at 15 mm/s at 3mm DOC in plywood when being conservative.

I’m not sure what this is. With glues and such, plywood can be such a wildcard. I’m not sure that very soft helps here. How does it perform in a more known, consistent material like MDF?

That would make me hesitant to increase the amps.

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On X I could drop in a MT-1705HS200A which, while still not in spec, is overspecced instead of underspecced…
I only suggest this instead of just buying 17HS19-2004S1 because I already have those to hand so it’s a quicker and cheaper test. I’ve already spent a bit more money than I strictly intended flailing around at this. Entirely my own fault, and not at all upset about it, for the record. Learning experiences!

Would then look to put 17HS19-2004S1 on all axes I think. Or is there a stepperonline p/n that’s an even closer match to the V1E ones? (this is mostly a note to myself to check, unless anyone happens to know)

Unmodified. I did try upping amps at one point, quickly realised that was a silly idea and reverted.

I’ve tried mucking with the dial a bit, both higher and lower RPM. Doesn’t seem to make much difference except going from good chips to powder, but could try running a full cut at “3” to see.

(@Tokoloshe cover your ears) I’d be fine going slower, especially if I could increase DOC as a result, but my understanding is 21mm/s is pretty much the bottom end of a good chipload. I could well be making those calculations wrong!

Neither am I to be honest, except that I think I could probably cut it with a penknife.

Happy to do test cuts in MDF, I do intend for this machine to have a diet of almost exclusively plywood though. Getting very quickly familiar with how broad of a range “plywood” is!

Yes, me too. Doubly so with my steppers already warm to the touch. I need to get some data on just how hot, I think.

Thanks for the thoughts!

Should have just bought the kittttt

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Holding Torque: 114oz.in (8.2kg.cm) | Current / Phase: 2.00A | Frame Size: 424260mm | Certification: CE, ISO, ROHS

Yea, I’d totally give that a shot on X. Just be aware that you want it to skip steps at a certain point so it doesn’t damage the machine. I’d leave the amps at 0.8 to start but they have a bit of headroom.

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