I loved the old lowrider and I love the LR3 even more. I use this thing round the clock for everything from boatbuilding, furniture to curved stretchers for artwork.
At one point I considered getting a fancier cnc but then realized how much I like taking risks with the LR3 and not having to worry about replacing crazy expensive parts or some costly/pain in the ass service plan.
I can run dangerously weird material through and feel pretty chill about the consequences.
It’s just damn ideal for prototyping. I think troubleshooting a design would not be helped much by cutting it faster. By the time I am finishing sanding and prepping one piece of wood/ply the second is ready.
The truth is that learning CAD stuff takes a while. That’s the biggest investment. Figuring out the machine build whether it be custom or turnkey is irrelevant from my perspective.
I would love to see the LR 3at some expo like a design or architecture fair. For a small business starting off it could work well for presentations, scaled models, prototyping…again.
I also think it could be marketed to college and grad students stuck in the dumb bureaucracy and backlog of a 60k machine. There’s plenty of unregulated interstitial space in educational institutions - waiting for Lowrider creep…common rooms, basements, frats, the abandoned parking lot next door…
I understand the desire to grow the business. Perhaps a foundation or non-profit is worth looking at? This had great consequences for Blender.
Like Blender, maybe more so - there’s a lot of good karma here on the forum and it’s productive. It’s going somewhere; where that might be I dunno but it feels genuine, creative and inspired.
This is all to stay @vicious1 - you’ve done an amazing job. Whatever adjustments are made…keep them small!
Pre-terminated cabling seems like it might be low-hanging fruit if you can standardize on a few recommended harness lengths. I would suggest aiming all new builds at dual endstop/self-squaring capability to remove stocking complexity, then using a 6-conductor cable as the basis for the harnesses since you’ll mostly want an end stop almost everywhere you’ve got a motor, and it’s easier to leave a connector unused than to guide folks to getting different ends where they need to be during installation. Installing the stops can still be optional in the build instructions, but I think it will be simpler to include the capability as default in the harnesses to tracking multiple combinations of wiring.
“Full sheet” lowrider seems like a natural choice. Make the harnesses long enough to handle whatever the default metric and US sheet goods sizes are with some extra, maybe call the US version 9’ long and 5’ wide to have some wiggle room if ends need to be re-made at some later date, and just have the builder coil any extra length and secure it in a safe location (spelled out in the revised instructions) if they’re building a smaller machine.
For the Primo things are less cut-and-dried, with inter-acting constraints. I’d try identifying some “sweet spots” and coordinating with the size calculator (if that’s feasible). Have a “maximum recommended footprint for cutting aluminum” and a larger “maximum recommended footprint for wood/plastics.” Then you need to decide whether to stock 2 full harnesses and let the buyer choose, to ship the smaller harness by default and offer a set of extensions, or (if the price differential between the big and small one was small enough) just sell the longer one.
You can have online instructions for folks that want to adapt the stock harnesses for running 2 motors off one driver, but I wouldn’t stock adapters in the shop.
This is the part I think I am stuck on. I have been at this for more than 7 years. Every time I make a new gcode it is always a test. Building the machine is something I barely remember. No machine, perfect out of the box, or not will crash and need fixing or adjusting, and we all need CAM. We can use any CAM package available to any machine. We are not locked in like some are. I even watched a video last night and the guy kept saying how maintenance free screw driven axis were…they absolutely are not. Then need to be maintained and once backlash gets worse you need to calibrate it digitally to compensate.
Work has to be put in and I have never considered assembly to be the work but I am learning most think that is a huge part of it. St least in terms of converting a new lurker to a user. I am learning to see from another perspective. I can make assembly easier, never put too much thought other than mechanically, now I need to put some effort into making it all together easier.
Our audience has been morphing from a hardcore DIY crowd to a more average consumer based. I’m learning.
This is where we are now, except I just send long terminated wires. I did not think folding wires was that big of a deal. I do have 6 lead terminated ribbon cable to make it tangle free as well and easy to run. Do I really need to get custom cut wires? I would also have to standardize where people mount the board. Some go under some go next to the build.
The reason the new LR has the box on board is to keep the cable length work as is. One is extra long but the axis is so big there is plenty of room to tuck away the extra.
To me with these most recent comments are telling I could focus on making the bundles and instructions more linear and cut and dry. The hard part is what is easy/hard for me is different from other people. So I do what I think is needed for the instructions then see what questions are asked and fill in the blanks. If questions get asked about the bundles I do what I can to add info to the selectable options (I am testing a new bundle system with the website update).
There’s a blend of positive and negative throughout this thread. I get that you’re in a “time to re-evaluate” mode at the moment, but you should also take this opportunity to take credit for things that are working well. Could the documentation be better? Sure, but the answer to that question is always going to be “yes.” Don’t let that discourage you.
It’s dangerous to underestimate the significant learning curve in building instruction manuals for an audience that expects a smooth road to a functioning machine as compared to the effort behind putting together a guide for the “hard core DIY” types.
I used to design intro to networking and system admin college exercises, as well as ones for more advanced security courses. It was so much easier for the advanced courses, both because they had more skills, but we could also (mostly) assume they had done our intro exercises and had a common history upon which to draw.
You don’t have the advantage of “bringing folks up through the ranks.” You need to be ready to service a first-timer right out of the gate for any and all of the models you’re providing.
I don’t have a silver-bullet solution to offer, just acknowledging that its a thorny problem. The good news is that, since you’re providing the instructions on-line, you can afford to make lots of small incremental improvements as they arise, and you don’t have bunch of money tied up in pre-printed manuals when things change.
I just packed 7 boxes. One was a kit, the rest where parts and partial kits. I think I finally get what you are all telling me. I am marketing and presenting myself as hardcore DIY, so I see DIY sales. If I just listen to you all we can get the casual DIYers as well as the Hardcore. Not necessarily the straight out of the box users. Willing to turn a few screws to save a ton of money.
This is not a bad analogy. In my previous post, I was not suggesting you ship tubing or base boards. And you have some of these customers now. You see them in forum posts. They have already read the documentation but are still unsure enough to ask questions. They seek out models and other solutions rather than design solutions of their own. Or they want easy solutions because they are trying to solve something for their small business, not have a maker experience.
In addition to having a “complete” kit and build instructions, you might find opportunity in looking at what else is commonly 3D printed to complete the build, then design your own versions. The three things that come to mind are electronics housings, dust shoe (for the Primo), and (as touched on above), a table design.
Look for all the resistance points and ask yourself 1) how to reduce them, and 2) how to get rewarded for the effort.
You might also experiment with more “complete” solutions. For example, most people want an e-stop to interrupt both router and the electronics. Your current stock of just the switch requires additional components and designs. Consider stocking a switch with a housing, or the current switch and an IOT relay, or even a fully wired MAINS switch. I don’t know to what extent more expensive, complete solutions will sell, but you won’t know until you try.
The LR3 bundle was great, now that I am going to update to the LR4 (truly I am), from my perspective it’s not a big deal, but I’d love to see an “update” bundle, and yes that would need to include wires at least the option for them because end stops are the new reality. I have been a little out of touch for a bit, but here have been at least two recent “what do I need to upgrade” threads of late - how many are asking the same question but not participating in the forums I wonder.
Definitely taking notes of what else is available that is a good add on, and what fits in a box with a full kit.
Primo full kits are basically full and can only fit some endmills and maybe some sort of wire solution, until a redesign if I can condense any of the parts.
LR3 fits in 2 medium boxes and has room but I am considering a redesign to get it to fit in one large box. (I Thought it would fit when I made it) the extras like board boxes make it too big. In the US it means it is $4-5 difference in shipping costs from the primo, international they pay $120-180 instead of about $95.
Shipping is still the key here.
As for update kits, Normally I am fairly certain I have an update kit within a couple weeks. The LR3 I am still waiting on a Linear rail shipment, unfortunately. But it is just linear rails and some screws/nuts. On the radar and to do list, shipping is about a month out at this point, due any day.
This is something to consider - In the US at least, you can buy the conduit in 5’ or 10’ sections, so if the default was 5’ wide, tubing would just be a purchase without any cutting needed. That would save on shipping, while still making it easy for new users.
Also remember you can offer things that are not economical, where the price is simply higher. As long as you are clear about the situation.
Please don’t buy from me; you can get better deals elsewhere, and even at these prices there is not much margin for me. Plus you pay a lot for shipping.
This can build trust even when people don’t buy, and if someone really can’t (or is unwilling to) find another source, you can still save the project.
Returns/warranty for routers, or return shipping for tubes is still going to be an issue where you have to be super clear or it still might make sense not to sell at all. The point is that just because something is not competetive with the market is not by itself a reason not to offer it.
This is hugely important. If you can’t provide a critical differentiator, you might rightly elect not to offer that piece. I see tubes and routers/spindles being in this category. There are “commodity” offerings in virtually all localities. As long as the BOM or instructions are clear enough, the user can still be successful executing their build.
This quote embodies where I see your blinders are to a diy population that is more mainstream user base:
I could be wrong, but I don’t think this is where we are now. If I am wrong, things get easier but it would highlight an opportunity for clarity.
I have not bought an LR3 yet and may drag my feet for an LR4, but I don’t see wiring in the description of any kit or as a separate item.
You don’t really have a single “standard” controller and the connections on the Rambo and SKR are slightly different.
There should be a standard location for the controller. People can modify and put it where ever they like but don’t be scared to have a default so someone who doesn’t know enough or care enough to think about it doesn’t have too.
Agreed, dealing with excess wire isn’t a big deal and extending a wire harness is much easier than reterminating connectors, but having one the right length for the standard kit has appeal (value).
On other considerations:
Documentation sucks. It’s not fun and it’s not something you can really charge for, but it is an enabler. It also becomes at least somewhat easier if it is for a specific kit / configuration without all the “if you’d like to…”, or “if you use…” one clean set of baseline docs with potential supplements for alternative configurations would be far more approachable.
Shipping also sucks. People have grown to expect free or at least low cost shipping. But you need to consider just building it into the kit price and offering it “free” for the kit. Give yourself some extra room in the box for some extras and margin on the baked in cost and try not to dwell on it.
I am not aware of USPS giving volume discounts, so it is unlikely they are the most cost effective way to go, but I assume you have compared options. Designing parts and a kit around a “standard” shipping box seems crazy unless it is a subtle geometry difference that doesn’t have any practical functional ramifications.
I consider myself to be far more in the former camp. Probably also why my many V1 machines are anywhere from slightly nonstandard to “based upon” modified.
My home is filled with DIY projects from audio/video gear to cabinets and decoration.
One of the big things that appeal to me in the V1 machines is the ability to customize. I don’t know how common that is for other customers and builders, and I won’t say that it hasn’t caused me issues with building and debugging the machines, but in the end, I have machines that are specifically useful to me.
Building the machine was at most one project. The ongoing use of the machine is still something where I am learning and improving what I can do, and simplifying that would be a great value-add.
I also did have some trepidation moving into CAD and CAM. It helped that I had some exposure by designing for 3D printing, but the CAM thing has always been more difficult –and intimidating– than dropping a model into a slicer. Not sure what can be done about that.
I offer two choices, Supply chain issues are preventing me to carry just one. I am out of stock on one or the other constantly. The connections while technically different both fit the wires I include. What is currently not included is endstops and wires for the SKR. I just worked a deal with my supplier and the next batch should come with them. All stated on the shop page.
The standard is hanging off the edge of a table, but I do not force it to be there.
I will look into this but we service the entore world, there are always going to be options. I have a 4x2’ LR, some make a 5x10’. There will always be options and if’s. I have requests to add more if’s than take them away. People want me to support more boards, not just one. LAser only cutters not just CNC’s . A standard is almost against what this project is.
To add a little history to this, most of my sales for the first year where for Mpcnc’s as 3D printers, no one knew what a CNC was.
I do. In the US. IF you want me to build in free international shipping, you will pay an extra $100 for a kit in the US. This is not an option.
They absolutely do. I am a volume commercial customer. The prices are almost always cheaper than UPS and FEDEX.
I don’t think you have looked into shipping costs very much. A little too long, or a little too heavy can swing the price hundreds of dollars.
I appreciate the comment but I think this was hot take and not researched enough.
Kiri:moto looks like it could almost be set up like a slicer for CNC. I need to dig more. I don’t like to do it that way but I can see the value for pretty much all others doing it.
For those that don’t know, kiri:moto only brings in stls. If there was a simple, free tool for making stls from svg/dxfs then it might work (tinkercad, maybe?). I don’t know how you could do something like sign carving on it.
I don’t know exactly what we need, becauseI’m not up to that bit yet and it’s been a year since I went looking but lots of links sent me to this page (which I bookmarked) it’s a minefield of banner ads though.
I had also thought about the tinkercad option but again, I’m not there yet!
I don’t know how a converter like that could possibly work. Dxf is the shapes of 2D. Stl is 3D (with thickness). You would need to decide how thick each part needs to be before exporting an stl.
THIS POST has a lot that resonated with me on ways to get an easier way to build by taking some pain out for newbies.
Even someone who knows how to hack/build things still enjoys the ease of knowing “the green labelled wire gets plugged into the green labelled port” and “blue to blue” and “red to red” etc. Color coordinating wiring and plug ports etc would not in any way stop someone from mod’ing or tweaking.
