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Long absence due to medical reasons (L&R femur nails, oh joy!), just getting back up to speed slowly, but here is my two cents on the topic, which along with 10 bucks, might get you an iced doppio espresso with 20 shots of espresso and 10 pumps of white mocha.
I can think of two things:

  1. Offer a pre-packaged controller with everything needed to hook up. I’m running my mpcnc on an openbuilds controller, which while it is an overblown and over priced Arduino shield, offered me one stop shopping. Easy setup, easy configuration, cabling and connectors easy to setup. Pricey? yes. But for guys (and gals) with a bit more disposable income who don’t want to have to delve into text based config files or having to setup a programming platform on their computer, easy to justify the additional expense. Again, make it easy for a prospective buyer. Don’t give them the option of fear, uncertainty and doubt. And this is coming from a guy who is not a neophyte, I bought my first PC - aTRS-80 Model I in 1978, so I am no stranger to computers, but I digress.
  2. Get out there on youtube. I watched one video by this guy: https://www.youtube.com/@lincolnst.woodworks
    and I was hooked. I would up watching every video he had, and he’s not even pushing any product, just sharing his opinions and skills. And monetizing it, to boot, something you certainly can do better because you have products to push!
    That’s it, again just opinions from one ordinary guy in the midwest…
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225

Good to have you back and thanks for offering your perspective!

1 - What about the controllers I offer do you see as not meeting your requirements? Up until the LR3 they have come with everything you needed, priced just a few dollars over amazon, plug and play, and no programming necessary.

2 - I love youtube but it is a serious time commitment, people putting out a video a week or more are doing it full time usually with a team to help them. Full time solo -non vlog- youtubers usually get out about one a month or so. I have a user right now willing to make specific videos but it isn’t free. As many times as I have tried, the editing part is just not easy and takes a ton of time.

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  1. Maybe you just need a new name: “Complete CNC Electronics Kit”, “Based on 32bit skr pro, with independent auto square for 5 motors”, “*for MPCNC up to XX by YY in workspace”.

Looking at the current shop page:

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Screenshot_20221227-090208
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The title has the technic features (“SKR Pro1.2, 5x 2209 drivers, TFT35 E3 V3 -flashed-”), and the user based benefit is hidden down in the description (“32bit control bundle. Pre flashed with whichever standard CNC firmware you choose.”)

When I was in sales, we were taught to explain everything with a feature and a benefit. The feature was something that was quantitative, something we knew the customer wanted (for example, 4k resolution). The benefit is something qualitative, from the perspective of the customer (like seeing more detail in their movies and TV).

So in the case of your skr pro item, the user doesn’t necessarily know what an skr pro is (and we see this question a lot). But they do know they need the electronics for a CNC machine.

They also need the wiring harness, endstops, the screen, the power supply. Having all of this in an item with a title that describes the benefit to the customer would make that immediately clear. Then the details can have the list of ingredients, the features, and links to the instructions.

It should be clear that they buy this and they don’t have to do any soldering, or crimping, or flashing the micro. You just need to make sure it is actually that simple. I think you do the best you can, but things like M666 are still done by a connected computer. And depending on the length of the builds, there may need to have extensions, or some crimping or something. The power supply does need to be cut and little patch wires need to be made to power the motors, etc.

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Ah, thanks for the break down. Adding that to the list, reword the board descriptions and titles first. (skr endstop wires are still not right, trying again)

I have been slowly making changes to the kits to make them easier, less options. Ordering things takes time though.

(updates. The new power supplies are trickling in, no more cutting. The team at Btt is sending shorter jumpers for the board power. It came with three 15" jumpers but because of this thread I asked for only one 3". It has taken months but I do believe the next order will include the new short jumpers.)

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About point 2: Lincoln street woodworks
Has taken the YouTube woodworking world by storm- EVERYONE is talking about it. He dropped 3 videos at once, so you could see a bunch of stuff on first pass, and has a very humerous, Matter of fact presenting style. Dude is killing it. He went online about two weeks before I did, and I ended up and ditching my efforts because I suck in Comparison. Plus we just had a kid so time wasn’t working out anyway. Scott Walsh is another one with grey videos, and they are buddies. They really sat down and figured out what works and they are doing great.

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229

Well Tony and Tom have really made me take a second to think about the machines.

Dividing my attention between the LR and MPCNC takes, well, twice the time. The LR is really fun to use and might be the one I should pursue going forward.

The LR has some secrets built in that I no one has noticed yet and instead of revamping the MPCNC I could do a some tweaks on the LR.

MPCNC - kinda easier to build (except squaring), costs less mostly because of the LR linear rails, easier to source.

LR - kinda easier to use, removable from the table, might be able to make some design changes to beef it up a bit more possibly reduce cost, smaller footprint/usable area. This one does seem to have more fit and finish, and room for changes.

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That’s what I was referring to in my thread about the advantages of the Primo over the LR. The new design is awesome, and imagining you could spend twice the time on developing one machine would be a great outlook.

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Dude, I was talking to Tom about exactly this. He’s going to run some speed tests and compare against the primo (I’m just on the forum a lot more often than he is).

I think I’ve mentioned before that i REALLY dig the wire management, integrated dust collection, and workpiece access for the LR. I don’t know what the build cost difference actually is, but I know those three things alone are worth it, full stop.

I also know that people have wondered in the past what kind of machine you would build if you gave yourself a 1k-1500 budget. I gather that you haven’t been very interested in that space, but maybe you have ideas for other types of machines that people haven’t made accessible yet?

Maybe the primo really can outperform the LR3. I don’t even know anymore. You’d probably have to build the two of them for yourself at the same size and push them deep in order to convince yourself whether and how much. But even if, i think 99% of people are well inside the LR3 envelope based on what I’ve seen, and probably cutting once a week or a couple times a month where it would be nice to have the table back.

I’m solid in the LR3 camp now.

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The extra time is enticing! I was working on some really rough MPCNC ideas this morning and kept thinking…“the LR3 has already solved this problem”.

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Secrets? Tweaks?

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At least there is an expansion slot on the core… :stuck_out_tongue:

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I saw that in the instructions… always kinda wondered.

Can’t be lasers- there are several people running several mounts already. Plasma mount?

Can’t wait for the reveal

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More of a backup plan…

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Playing devil’s advocate here. The LR needs flat parts, or it needs to be bootstrapped with printed parts. That isn’t a bad thing. But it is another thing that the MPCNC doesn’t have that makes it a lower barrier of entry.

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So why not bring both together? Can you merge the cores? I know it is out there but what if you bring z lift to the core and not the outside? Use emt or linear, emt and bearings are cheaper. Now I am just speaking not trying to spit spitballs. Maybe there is a reason i cannot see for the z to be on the outside. If it is not there i think then the lr and mpcnc are now less of a choice as the lr is now stiff and easier.

As I look at it I am fairly certain my ask would probably not be as strong.

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239

I would make the YZ plates smaller to be printable on a 200x200, and was thinking about the strut plates. Not sure, need to spend some time with a mpcnc revist. See what is feasible to change and lower the foot print. And look at the LR and see what can be done with the flat parts…I can make it differently.

This allows the machine to get stronger as it cuts deeper. The one major difference in performance between the machines. The only reason we don’t do it with the MPCNC is it would take 4 Z steppers, at least to do it with leveling.

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I guess what Jeffe says is true. It’s the perception that matters. I always viewed it more as a diy kit, not even looking at the “pre-flashed” aspect of things.

Even last night, I was looking at Bart Drings 6 Pack board, and I thought, well since he offers the ESP32 pre programmed, how bad could it be?

Not even thinking that as a complete package, what you offer is as complete if not more so - at least compared to Fluid NC.

Again, my perception of the difference between the two controllers was flawed. Either I am extremely dense (don’t ask my wife), or perhaps I am not alone in looking at the SKR kit as something forboding: I have to put chips in, geez, will I put them in the right way? And those heat sink thingys, do I glue them on or what? And I have to buy wire and stops, what are stops?

I know I am going overboard, and I have put together an Arduino shield, where you have to do all of those things. But might I suggest in addition to what you offer, offering a dummy’s kit version or maybe two. One LR and one MPCNC, where everything is included.

  • Wiring, it’s in there and long enough for the biggest build
  • Power Supply
  • SD Card
  • Limit Switches and Wiring
  • And a Nice Case.
  • Put the chips and heat sinks in.
  • Pull the JST shields
  • Give an option of firmware when ordering it and have it installed.
  • Mount the board in the case, and make it look ready to roll.

Oh and I almost forgot, charge a $#&! load more for all the work!
But some users will see value in that proposition.

I guess what I am getting at is start offering a product, not just part of a kit.

If you look at other hobby machines like ooznest, they walk you thru product selections until you have everything you need. Others have mechanical kits and electronics kits or both. Others offer complete machines built. At 3-4K for a MPCNC sized unit. But offering everything needed. One stop shopping. Now I know you don’t want to spend your time cutting conduit to size, but why not offer everything else needed, in other words everything you can’t get at the local ace hardware or the big box store in one kit. Maybe even come up with set sizes for your machines and form a relationship with a metal supplier to drop ship the tubing at a better price and include it in your complete kit.

I think what you have done so far is fantastic, and you have reached a certain type of buyer who isn’t afraid of trying new things, sourcing materials, and digging in and getting dirty, and tweaking a bit. But I just think there is another group out there that don’t want to work or think that hard, and frankly are a bit afraid of tackling so much on their own. But what do I know?

Oh boy, I have always viewed the MPCNC as the gateway drug into the LR. That’s the machine that got me hooked, primarily due to the low cost. Got a 3d printer? Wow the parts are practically free. Don’t have one? No worries, V1 will sell you the parts cheap! Not to mention the fantastic forum you have built around your products.

On the other hand a 4’ x 8’ or larger machine is the holy grail of CNC routers IMHO.

LR Pro perhaps?

Ok enough ramblings, I’m sure most of what I’ve said here has been said by others, only better :slight_smile:

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Interesting take. This keeps coming up. I am really considering it, honestly shipping is a harder task than building at the moment.

Still the most worrisome part is supporting a person that is not interested in building it. I should try it instead of just dismissing it though.

No everyone puts a spin on it, some I understand more than others. You did well and I appreciate your spin.

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When covid hit, we started offering shipping in my business. Now it seems we need to dedicate someone 1-2 days a week just to do shipping. And we don’t charge enough to cover the costs, because that would be excessive, even though we have doubled what we charge for the service, and still our customer base keeps growing explicitly because we offer shipping, so we are making more $$$ because we ship, but I do understand the problem.

A very valid concern, one that I would be afraid to confront. If they don’t want to build it, they won’t want to figure out why it’s not perfect.

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I’ve seen some ridiculous build sizes, so maybe put a limit on it at “full sheet” for LR and 24X24 for Primo. With recommended Z heights both places.

Myself, I would have rather had a choice than pre made that way, but I’d tuck away extra wire.

A ready to go controller option is good though. Maybe a standard controller box where you feed it AC and have labeled exterior connectors for the motors, stop switches, spindle control and laser. “Spindle control” can be an SSR or 10V PWM and laser can be PWM/12V compatable with most laser modules on a 3 pin DuPont.

One case for the LR3 (X, Y1, Y2, Z1, Z2) and one for the Primo (X1, X2, Y1, Y2, Z) with matching wiring kits.

There is value there, though definitely extra work. This also means that you are making design decisions with the Primo that you currently don’t, but to have an electronics box that the end-user never has to open may be more comfortable for some of the wood worker types. (Thinking of my Dad, here. He’s been a carpenter for decades, but I had to explain to him what a CNC machine was when I made some pieces for him.) Most of these guys use power tools, but at best they may replace motor brushes when they wear out, they certainly don’t want to build their own electronics.

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