Lowrider 3 too big, what MPCNC size?

There will be lower rigidity in one direction, but I’m nowhere near experienced enough with this to be able to guess at how much of an issue that is. My understanding is that you’ll need some basic level of ridigity to actually even cut the parts at a speed that lets the cutter engage with the work and cut effectively and then anything beyond that is just speed.

I was successful cutting 3mm aluminium with my 600x600 aluminium tube design but needed to go relatively slowly with shallow depth of cut, small stepovers and trochoidal milling. Those things all compound because shallower depth means more passes, small stepovers mean more passes, trochoidal milling means more material removed and more movement for a given cutting path, so the combination of all of those might be the difference between a job taking 10 minutes on a dedicated aluminium-focused machine and several hours on a less rigid machine. There was no chance I would have been able to cut out a 100x100 part in a reasonable timeframe, let alone in 15mm.

I think that’s why I’m so keen on the idea of being able to adjust the size if needed. If the big one isn’t working, shrink it for the specific job. If you know you’re going to be pushing the envelope, capability wise, build it as small as possible and then expand later. If it’s as small as possible, you know you’re giving it the best chance for success.

I’ll have a hunt for some photos but if you look at the MPCNC photos, you can see the exposed ends of all the tubes. There’s nothing stopping those tubes sticking out further than the working area of the machine.

Ah, I have a couple of photos in the last post in my build thread:

You should be able to see the excess tube sticking out towards the back and right hand sides in the last photo. I decided to keep all the excess sticking out on 2 sides so it can still be slid hard into a corner when not being used. I’m also still using the same piece of 40mm Triboard as a work surface, which has been great. That means the overall footprint of the router is still the same as it was when 600x600 but it’s noticeably stiffer in the smaller size and with the Primo parts instead of the previous Burly parts.

If I wanted to increase the size of the machine, I could loosen the truck clamps on the back and right trucks, loosen all the corner clamps other than the front-left one and remove the screws holding them to the bed, take the belts off and then slide it all out to its new size. Because I made the cables the same length as the tubes, nothing even needs to change length. I can re-use the belts because they’re way longer than needed and the excess is just wrapped around the legs and cable tied.

In the process of shrinking my mpcnc. Originally built it with a 24" x 36" working area, but now it is reduced to 18" x 18" working area. Moral of the story is, if you are going to build bigger than the recommended size, do not use 3/4" emt or you will see significant flex mid span. This is not the fault of the design, but my fault for building too big.

Haven’t cut the tubes down yet…

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My buddy with an mpcnc now has similar aluminum/metal cutting needs and ended up going with GitHub - MillenniumMachines/Milo-v1.5 (build in progress)

It’s a different beast altogether. (240v 2.5 kW spindle, more $$$$, etc)

I can’t decide on a work area, it feels like I want to be able to do small alumium milling but also larger wood/mdf.

At what size does the alumium milling become less rigid/stable??

You’re heading down the same path that I did and, unfortunately, I never really got an answer because there kinda isn’t one. Everyone’s machines will be slightly different, as will everyone’s requirements leading to there being no ‘one true answer’.

The closest you’ll get is that any increase in size will reduce rigidity which will in turn slow down the maximum speed that the machine can mill material at. It may not be linear, but larger will always be less rigid. Deflection in the middle of the span is related to the length of the span to the power of 3, so a machine that’s twice as large will have 8x more flex in the middle of the bed. The difference will be less pronounced in the corners, but still always worse than if the machine were smaller.

That deflection under load is the main thing you’ll have issues with. A certain amount of force is needed to keep the tool loaded. You can lower that force by moving slower, but then you’re cutting smaller and smaller slivers until eventually the tool won’t cut cleanly and instead just rubs across the surface every 2nd or 3rd rotation. That causes the tool to heat from friction and because cutting away material keeps it cool. You can solve that by slowing the tool down and taking thicker cuts again, but that needs a spindle that can operate more slowly and slows the entire machine down heaps. This all gets massively exaggerated with longer tools because it’s not just stiffness in X and Y, the stiffness in X and Y also translates to rotational stiffness in the core. Longer tools mean more leverage on the core meaning more deflection for a given machine size, etc.

I was able to mill aluminium with a 600x600 working area and using my thick-walled aluminium tubes, but it never worked ‘well’. I’d have said good enough for a few holes or slots for connectors in 2-3mm aluminium, decently fast enough to route pieces out of thin sheet, probably not fast enough to consider using for thick sheet as anything other than a 1-off. Maybe 2-3 hours kinda range? At which point I’d be concerned that a cutter wouldn’t last that timeframe so would also need to plan cutter changes which means keeping tool height consistent etc.

So yeah, I’m not sure I can really help, other than to suggest brainstorming a list of things you want to do and then considering each one vs what other tools you have to do it. If you’ve got a heap of projects in wood that would be ideal for a CNC and one replacement part in aluminium plate that you want to make, maybe it makes sense to build a larger machine and break out a coping saw and some files to do the aluminium part. If you’ve got a bunch of parts you want to make accurately and repeatably in aluminium but also a general desire to do more woodworking stuff without any specific ideas, maybe make a smaller machine and consider using it to make templates for specific tricky features with a palm router.

I’ve come to the conclusion that for my purposes I’m probably better off with something smaller that works well for a more limited selection of tasks than a bigger ‘does everything but poorly/slowly’ type machine. It’s easier to find creative approaches to making big stuff on a small machine than it is to make the big machine work better, if that makes sense.

Worst case, use the MPCNC to make the flat parts for an LR3. That seems to be a common pathway…

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I’ve cut more aluminum on my full sheet LR3 than I have on my smaller 3’x5’ one. Both are extremely capable. The key is Throchiodal Milling

A big part of this difference in rigidity is due to the “webbing” on the gantry of the LowRider.

To get a feel for this, think of any time your car was parked on a bridge and a big truck came onto the bridge, and you felt the bridge flexing.

MPCNC


LowRider

The MPCNC has “single” bars (tubes) covering the spans.

The LowRider gantry has “double” bars (tubes) PLUS the braces and struts, the latter of which form the webbing.